Fodé Diop: Bitcoin in Senegal


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In this episode I am exploring the situation in Senegal with Fodé Diop, the founder of the Bitcoin developers meetup in Dakar. You will learn about his personal bitcoin story, the characteristics of his home country Senegal, the influence of French politics in Senegal and why Bitcoin matters, the state of bitcoin adoption and more. I have never been to Senegal nor have I studied it in any way. That’s why I found it especially interesting to hear Fodé‘s stories. I hope you like it, too!

  • His journey from Ethereum to Bitcoin
  • History and monetary situation in Senegal
  • French speaking western African nations
  • Influence of France
  • Language barriers in Bitcoin education
  • Banking situation in Senegal
  • Bitcoin use-cases in Senegal

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Recording Date: October 27, 2020
Location: Online

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    Note: This is an automated transcription. There might be errors and misspellings.

    Anita Posch [00:04:57] hello Fodé, welcome to the show.

    Fodé Diop [00:04:59] Hey, Hey, anytime. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

    Anita Posch [00:05:02] it's great that you're here today because I think we met briefly in Berlin at the lightning conference last year.

    Fodé Diop [00:05:09] Yeah. And actually amazingly, it's almost like exactly a year to date because it was the last October in 2019.

    Anita Posch [00:05:15] exactly. That's true. Yeah. And have you been at any conferences since then?

    Fodé Diop [00:05:23] Oh, no, no, actually there's an unfortunately, because when I left Berlin, I went back to San Francisco and then I came back straight to Senegal then in December. Yep.

    Anita Posch [00:05:31] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you just were talking about San Francisco, please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. what are you doing? Where have you been? You've lived in San Francisco at teams. And why are you back in Senegal?

    Fodé Diop [00:05:48] Oh, okay. well I lived pretty much, pretty much all over the place, but, I was born in Dakar in Senegal, and I went to, the United States when I was 18, 19, to go to college and play basketball. And then from there, I lived in the Midwest for a while. And, but ultimately I ended up in San Francisco.
    I mean, sorry, in California, actually Southern California, you know, like 2000 or so. And I worked in Hollywood for like almost a decade actually, but a little bit over 10 years, like 11 years apart. And then from there, I just ended up moving around, went to Las Vegas for awhile. and then moved to move, lived in Hawaii for a while.
    And at some point I decided to be, really get serious about software engineering. And I felt like if I didn't go to San Francisco, it wouldn't ever happen. So I packed everything that I had. I think he was like in 2015, then I moved to San Francisco and there, I just, attended a coding bootcamp, to learn JavaScript and a full stack web development.
    And while I was in a boot camp, I started one of the first meetups, actually in the Bay area, for Ethereum smart contracts programming, and it was called the Oakland blockchain developers meetup. And then from there, the rest is history. So from there, I got my first job writing smart contracts for ICU initially for like Olin casino.
    And I'm the work for also a, supply chain, renewable energy supply chain company for awhile. And then after a while I felt like maybe it wasn't really without what I, what I was looking for. And I moved back to San Francisco from Oakland and there, I really met some great people, especially, Alexander Leishman, who, the CEO of river.com because they already had, like, they had the Socratic seminar in San Francisco and I went and attended it every month, actually.
    And from there I learned a lot and they get me just more confident about Bitcoin and such. And, maybe one actually really working with Bitcoin full time from there.

    Anita Posch [00:07:28] Okay. So, but what did get you started in the first place, to learn coding.

    Fodé Diop [00:07:34] to learn coding. I was a computer science major when I first came. we came to America actually, in 94 I was already like really fully. I was, even though, since I was a kid, I knew that I wanted to be a computer programmer, even though I never had a computer. I grew up in Africa. As a matter of fact, my dad thought I was crazy because I used to buy magazines with, Computer photos on all on the cover.
    I just didn't know what these things were, but I was really obsessed with them somehow. And, yeah, I declared to be a computer science major when I first came, when I went to the States and, that I actually worked in computer science for a while. I worked in the works, and I was a programmer also when I was 21 to a wedding insurance software.
    But then when I went to Hollywood, I kind of lifted the world actually a little bit and went to, more like cinema cinematography. So in the camera operation, which I did for about a decade, But after that, when the iPhone came out in Oh seven, I realized that really the word was about to change because growing up in Africa, like mobile devices was everything.
    And when I saw the iPhone, I saw things that I felt like maybe we're going to change the world. One being that the device had the full browser, because when Steve jobs gave the demo of what iPhone, the first thing you said actually was that the same Safari, but, but he's in the Mac is going to be the same Safari inside the iPhone.
    Right. So it's a full browser. It wasn't like some kind of web, experience like browsing the web, like pirate that. And I feel like maybe if you can browse fully browse the web on a mobile device like that, then everything will change. So it took me a little bit of time to get more, build more confidence, actually about really what I was thinking about.
    So which ultimately got me to leave California and went to Las Vegas to start my first actually startup, which was a event to discovery platform on the iPhone, which I ran for a while before I actually moved to San Francisco.

    Anita Posch [00:09:19] Oh, so you have not only been coding for others. You also had your own startup.

    Fodé Diop [00:09:24] Yes. I actually have it all set up, but I had a CTO, at the time. it was, it was a park, a web app and a mobile application actually would really one of the first mobile applications in the iOS store to help people find events, parties per se. And it focused mostly, in the Las Vegas market.
    But, I ended up shutting it down after three years or so, because I felt like maybe it wasn't, I didn't have a way to monetize the application itself and it was really difficult to keep it going forward.

    Anita Posch [00:09:50] Yeah. That's very often a problem. Good, good ideas, but cannot be monetized. Yeah.

    Fodé Diop [00:09:57] Yes. That's exactly. And yes, go ahead. Yeah. And I made, I made a lot of mistakes at the time. It was actually, which I learned a lot really running because that was my very, very first startup. And one of them was at a, it was too hyper-local because the application itself mostly focused on Las Vegas.
    And then what happens is actually people will download it when they, when they came to the city. But as soon as they left it, they pretty much was just buried it from, from their phone because they didn't need it anymore. So the application itself, wasn't very sticky and it didn't really kind of, do they help me with my user retention and such, and I didn't have a way to, we do billing within the app itself, which means like buying, even tickets and such.
    And I felt like maybe there was a topic detriment, so there wasn't really no way to make money on the application. And there was no stickiness, but I learned through overtime.

    Anita Posch [00:10:40] Yeah. Sure. And then, and then you went to San Francisco and you started a meetup, or you went to a meetup a bit

    Fodé Diop [00:10:49] no. It's actually starting to meet up in San

    Anita Posch [00:10:51] You started. Oh, great. So that was one of the first or

    Fodé Diop [00:10:55] Yeah. I wonder when the very, very first one, because what happened was I was doing a boot camp or a web boot camp in Oakland, California. And then I would take the train every night, actually after my bootcamp to go to San Francisco to attend, like, like blockchain, crypto, Bitcoin meetups, basically. But at the time I felt like all of those meetups were pretty much like just, someone shooting the ice, sitting, chilling the ICO coin or something like that, you know?
    And I feel like maybe I just wanted to learn. So I said, well, if I wanted to learn, maybe I can start. My own meetup then, which I did with a couple of, couple of friends of mine who were in the same bootcamp I was in. So what we did was like every Sunday we'll get together and we'll learn something together and we'll share it the following Thursday.
    And luckily also the bootcamp I was in realized that maybe it was a win-win situation because we will bring in developers in-house, which may be actually, or maybe potential developers or people who were interested in like software and smart contracts and such. Which couldn't be potentially joined the, joined the bootcamp.
    So they offered this location and also bought us pizza. So from there we did what I did was I said, okay, well, our motto, our motto is this. We just want someone who's open-minded and bring the cooperative with them with a terminal, basically. Right. So here we don't have any slides and everybody will participate because everybody will write code.
    And what we did was like, pretty much like started with very, very small smart contracts. And then we went to more complicated, smart contracts and especially, like smart, like, like, like, like bug hunting, like, like a, just re re reenacting the re-insurance attack, like type stuff, because people also were like very interested in like, attacking smart contracts.
    And then that's how we learned. So we learned every, every Sunday we'll learn. And then the following Thursday we'll teach what we learned.

    Anita Posch [00:12:32] And what was the step then to Bitcoin?

    Fodé Diop [00:12:36] Oh, so Bitcoin actually. So for me, Bitcoin was really sooner for me, actually, it was in 2011. So in 2011, when I moved to Las Vegas to actually run my meetup itself at the time, there was a guy who was like really intense. His name was Julian Tosh and he ran, these, the Las Vegas Linux and Bitcoin meetup.
    Right. So 11, mind you, this is like three years after the whole financial debacle of 2008. So 2008, I think what happened was people got really, like, it was a shock to the world itself, right? The financial collapse, the Lehman brothers, all these banks collapse. So when I was in LA at the time, you know, I saw a lot of people started watching CNBC more, maybe like learning more about money and really being curious, actually, really what happened actually.
    Why, why did his whole system collapse. Right. So you started like, learning about all these things. And I think on the time I must've learned about Bitcoin, I'm not sure it's actually, if it was on Reddit first or maybe on hacker news initially, I can't really quite, like trick, like trace it back. But I think I learned about it on like, around that time, like between 2008 and in 2000 and 2011.
    And then when I got to Vegas and 2011, so the biggest meetup there was, you know, the Las Vegas, Lennox and Bitcoin meetup. And then from there I started learning more and more. We're more about it. And luckily also my roommate at the time, heartache thing, he's like really was running, he's he was running his, startup, which was a, a cloud based point of sale system itself.
    So it was a payments company. And then of course, you know, because we lived together, we used to, we used to like stay up and talk about Bitcoin and blockchains until like four in the morning. And then from there, that's how I really got to like really go deeper. And I went through the rabbit hole and I think in 20, in 2013, there was a class by Princeton, on, cryptocurrencies, maybe I think it was, it was really actually intense course.
    And then from there I went even deeper in the rabbit hole. And then read the white paper. And ultimately I just fell in love with the system itself. And I felt like it was something I needed to understand. But when I got to San Francisco at the time, I only knew JavaScript. Actually I felt like maybe Bitcoin was too hard to, to, to, to program in maybe in C plus plus and such.
    I felt like I didn't have those skills. So naturally Ethereum was an easier entry point because it was mostly just, you know, web three JavaScript and like mostly like web applications. So the naturally drawn me towards maybe that. But ultimately I don't regret it because that's what really got me like ultimately to Bitcoin.

    Anita Posch [00:14:54] interesting. So you basically started with a furious, learn more about it, and then you also got into Bitcoin and I think you stayed with Bitcoin more. Yeah. Y Y can you tell us that.

    Fodé Diop [00:15:08] Well, it was more like, you know, at the time, like, I really like, like I said, first in love with the knowledge itself, with a solutions white paper, like the promise of like really decentralizing and democratizing, like payments and such. Right. And like the immutability of the ledger itself.
    So when the, when the Hartford cop one do with, with Ethereum, I'd only started having doubts about like, like maybe having that kind of blockchain system with this charismatic leader in front. You know, and I said, okay, well, this is not really what, what the promise was. The promise actually was that this ledger was supposed to be immutable and this guys, because they really did this crazy mistake with the Dow hack and such.
    Right. But it was someone's fault that they decided to pretty much roll back these, this ledger, for whatever reason, you know, and I dunno, I just. Kind of like fell out of touch with it at the time, you know? And, and when I started going to the Socratic seminar in San Francis and I ended up meeting all these like Bitcoin core guys and, you know, from Peter Willy to a law firm, lightning, lightning, and, Alex Leishman and everybody else in there.
    I just like, felt like maybe this is more, what, what I'm looking for is very difficult. I think you might much harder to like really tackle Bitcoin, but ultimately I felt like if I really persevered, but I couldn't maybe like, you know, somehow get my foot in and keep it going and where I've been since actually.

    Anita Posch [00:16:28] And what are you working now? what are you working on now?

    Fodé Diop [00:16:31] Okay. now, what can you actually own a, on the marketplace, just to allow for people to, buy and sell Bitcoin through mobile, through a mobile application, but I'm focusing on Francophone Africa. So basically the French speaking part of Africa. So what I'm focusing on right now?

    Anita Posch [00:16:47] Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I mean, you, you grew up in the Senegal. And now you went back. Why did you want, why did you go back to your home country?

    Fodé Diop [00:16:57] sure, actually, initially it was really by accident to be at nobody. I mean, not by accident that I stayed, but, I, I had, when I was living San Francisco, actually, when we met in October at the time, me actually in my coworker, the one that I worked with in the first one casino, he made a 3d printed point of sale system for lightening devices.
    And it costs about like 70 us dollars in parts to print, you know, And I found the device like really interesting, and I felt like maybe. This could be the entry point, like for Bitcoin Africa, Africa itself, right? Because if merchants can have a way to receive, a Bitcoin payments, maybe this will actually accelerate adoption.
    So I wanted to, I wanted to see maybe if it would work, if my assumptions were right and I wanted to test them actually. So one of the same time when I was in Berlin, I actually found that the, my mom was going to have surgery itself in December. Like on like the end of the year. So I want it to be come home and be there with her.
    So I got here, I think it was December 17th of last year, 2019. And this is like really right before COVID. So when I was at home, I decided to stay home way before a couple of months or month or so. And while I was there, like literally the airport start closing the news only getting started getting worse and worse everyday, pretty much that COVID was just really taking over the world.
    Initially. I thought maybe it was just us, but it was everywhere. Pretty much. So I said, well, maybe I'll just stay initially work remote for a while because I didn't have much stuff in San Francisco. Maybe I can just be here with my mom and there'll be good. And in the meantime, it would allow me to stay and like redo some like ground research and really figure out crypto in Africa and like really write it out.
    And then when things get better, I'll go back to San Francisco. So there was almost a year ago and like, you know, so it doesn't really what got me to be here actually now. So it wasn't like really planned. It just happened.

    Anita Posch [00:18:34] Okay, understand. And can you maybe explain or tell our listeners and also me, because I've never been to synagogue. I have been to Simba and Botswana, but not to any other, I mean, to Morocco, but it's very long ago and it's quite different, different, I think then, yeah, the Senegal. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
    how big is it? How many people live there and especially. Also the history a little bit. And how, why it is that you have, the French? No, how's it called? Sorry. The, the best on, yeah, the currency is the West West African frog.

    Fodé Diop [00:19:15] Yeah. That's the one I was to go Frank. Yeah. It's a, it's a crazy, it's a crazy occurrence actually. Yeah, I can do a little bit. Sometimes I tend to ramble a little bit, but let me know if I'm going to too, but I will tell you the story a little bit. yeah. So sending out is a small country. just a, about, I believe the size of Arkansas in the United States and it has about 14 million people now live actually 15 nowadays.
    15 million people, very small coastal country on a Northwest of Senegal or Northwest of Africa. Sorry. And I live in Dakar, which is the North most Western point in Africa, actually. So you can, from the, from, from the car to New York is about a seven and a half hour flight. So it's not too bad if you want to get to the States and synagogue received it.
    It's independence from France, from France in 1960. So not even that long ago, actually. And, yeah. And, What's a wonderful one that when friends left, they left behind the currency in their language, which is really unfortunate in the latter, but I would just focus on the currency for that. so the currency was really the legacy of France, France being under occupation.
    But by the German, because when, when France was under an occupation by Germany, Germany, give them a specially denominated bookmark to use in France. Right. So does the became the currency and also it becomes the money for them to pay the taxes as well. So in 1945, when the war war was over and then, the, the gentlemen were we're about to leave.
    generally Charles with the goal felt like maybe this was the right thing to do to basically have the same system, but to bring, ex French colonies in surf in servitude, really? Because they knew that they couldn't be like, they couldn't keep these colonies forever. So at some point in time they would have to leave and the way for them to basically keep control.
    While not being there was to live the language, because if you control someone's language, you pretty much control. If you go to someone's language, you can read, you can really control someone's thought. And if you control someone's currency, you can really pretty much control the economy and you don't have to be there.
    So before they left, they had this deal with these colonies that they would have to have somehow pay these cold calling your tax per se, and they will pay it in, in this particular currency. So now let's say those currencies after, after they have left these countries, now these poor African countries, let's say they sell, they sell some oil in the international market.
    They will get, they will get paid in dollars, but they cannot pay the people in dollars. So they will have to send this money to France and France, internal will print this money and send it back, send it back to them for them to basically pay the bills and pay the people they're supposed to pay in salaries and for the workers and such.
    Right. So it became really a instrument of servitude. The for France towards these African countries and which is really unfortunate. And the saddest thing about it, I think like really, for me, everything came full circle because in 1994, when I went to the States to go to college that same year, the currency evaluated by 50% as a matter of fact, which means that right before almost supposed to go and leave and go to college, the money that my dad saved take me to the United States were pretty much cut by 50%.
    And I think actually it really contributed to even me dropping out in college, dropping out of college back then also because I just didn't have enough money. So when I went to the States, the dollar was very strong. Our money was weak, it just got devaluated. And to the friends, they pretty much said that it was better because then it will make exports cheaper for these African countries.
    But, but that, you know, I'm not really sure about that, but yeah, ultimately it just really was a women horrible timing and like, and, and, and, and contributed to me again, having like really financial difficulties the first year I went to America. So fast-forward like later again, when I discovered Bitcoin and I just started learning about like monetary policies and, Austrian economists and all these things.
    I kind of went back to like, learn about my currency and really. All these things were there. All his crews were there along the way. And it was almost like I was meant to work in Bitcoin, actually like funny enough, right.

    Anita Posch [00:22:59] Yeah, I can imagine that because. If you have this history, like, and all these, these problems with money and your currency that you are basically, like, In German, we say frame to be steamed. So meaning that basically France is still controlling your country in a way, because I, I also read that, there is an obligation that cynical and other West African countries have to have, 50% of their reserves in the central bank of

    Fodé Diop [00:23:30] absolutely. You got it. Right. Right. Actually, that is exactly what the problem is right now. And you really think of that actually. So these 14 countries are helping up prop up France. You know, like France is really highly dependent off of these countries. They also get, they also get like first choice on the raw materials.
    They come from these countries, they get to buy it for the price that they want or, or actually for the price that they fixed basically. And they have this countries have 50, 50% of the reserves within the fence, national treasury, which is actually like really to me is just like mind boggling. That is really happening to this day as a matter of fact, right.
    Because that is not fair for a sovereign country to do that to another suffering suffering country. Again. Right. So for me, it was more like when I discovered Bitcoin, I said, okay, well maybe Bitcoin is a savior or Bitcoin actually is a pedagogical tool for us to fight back against oppression pretty much.
    Right. Because if we, if we move for sure that money is going to become digital at some point in time, right. It's going to become digital. Right. So who is going to be in charge of printing this money? Right. Who's going to be, it's going to be the governments. I highly doubt it because no one, no one will trust them.
    Right. We see the struggle from all these central banks all over the world, struggling to release their CBDC is the central bank digital currencies. Right. Because it's not really obvious. You don't get, you don't get the security of Bitcoin. You don't get really all the benefits that actually that a decentralized, a truly decentralized, decentralized monetary system like Bitcoin offers.
    Right? So again, are you really better off making it a cryptocurrency or blockchain based cryptocurrency or just like these database entries again from zeros and ones? Which you can like really circulate around the world or actually circulate around your country per se, because nothing is saying that actually that the CDBC are going to be compatible.
    Let's say the one from China and the one for we're going to United States. And the one from Africa from Senegal are going to be all compatible. Right. We all know how governments get and how they get really, very defensive about their territories and borders and such. Right? So for me, Bitcoin actually is a true equalizer because if we say that actually like in, in, in Africa right now, what is really stopping the development is we'll wait for us to have easy seamless, frictionless cross border payments.
    How do we allow for African countries to really dislike blue business within each other? Right. I think it's amazing that if it, if this happened, actually that will really catapult, Africa in, in, in, in, in a whole new dimension and really help it develop in the future.

    Anita Posch [00:25:54] and also it's not, it's also like, a safe Haven in a way against

    Fodé Diop [00:26:00] Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

    Anita Posch [00:26:03] Because many countries in Africa have very high inflation rates.

    Fodé Diop [00:26:07] yes. And we see it everywhere, like Nigeria and all these places that are like really developing a Nigeria is like huge. Now it's like, it's almost a hundred million people, right. So it's one of the largest countries in, in Africa itself. And the efficient rates are just like, that doesn't even make any sense.

    Anita Posch [00:26:23] I also read that, this, 50% of your money has to be in the, reserves of France that this should have been abolished last year or this year. And, and that they wanted to do something which is called equal.

    Fodé Diop [00:26:40] Yes. Yes. So,

    Anita Posch [00:26:41] What is.

    Fodé Diop [00:26:41] yes. So it became a whole nother mess again. Right? So in West Africa right now, there's this, there's this coalition called ECOWAS and I think it's, economic, something of West African countries. Right. So what he was is that, we had, so. So there are they're 14 French speaking countries, which you said the same CFA, even though it is like, it's like zones like seven countries on one side side or what's Africa itself.
    Right. But it's the same currency per se. Right. So they decided maybe actually to do business in, actually amongst them, they will have the same currency and now they will bring in all the English speaking countries like Ghana. ms. Yara in Nigeria. In all these places. Right. And they went through this process, I think for the last 20 years and tried to have the same currency called echo itself.
    Right. And then agreed. And there were supposed to actually launch it this year in 2020. And then out of nowhere, literally out of nowhere, the president of, ivory coast, women television with the president of France standing right behind him and also that now they were going to remain the fake CFA, the echo.
    Right. So it totally hijack the currency itself and they hijacked really the work of these countries. So obviously Nigeria, which is like independent country and really developing really fast Ghana, which is an independent country and really moving really fast. And West Africa, one of the, really the strongest economies in West Africa, they don't want to have anything to do with the French.
    Right. They don't want to have the French basically meddling in, in, in the economies and, or have any kind of say, or maybe benefiting from the development of these countries. So of course they pulled it back. So now this whole thing is a mess again, right? So thinking about now, launching the echo, but like just renaming the Frank CFA of the French really mimic the echo, which is really, really horrible.

    Anita Posch [00:28:20] Okay. That's ridiculous because it doesn't change your thing.

    Fodé Diop [00:28:23] Just random, like rename the name and then just like, it's basically the same BS call. And they said, actually, they sort of said, Oh, well, no, we're going to, it's a new currency because then went, we were no longer required, a 50% deposit in the French treasuries and blah, blah, blah. But no, but no one believes them because they know actually it's a, it's the same rhetoric.
    Right? It's the same, same thing. There's a bit, as people have been saying since, like, if you think about it, something has been independent since, since 1960. That's not even the long ago. That's like last year, you know? So, so it's like, so it's like something that is still a very young country, right. But the French cannot leave.
    They just cannot leave. They don't want to leave because they know how dependent they are from these of these French colonies or XX colonies or African countries, which is really sad.

    Anita Posch [00:29:09] how is the living situation for people in Senegal? I mean, how is the economy compared to other African countries?

    Fodé Diop [00:29:18] I think, I think it does. The, the, the problem is the same in all these African countries here, you know, in a few years, like Africa will surprise China in population and it's a very, very young population actually. If you, if you really, all you have to do is like maybe circle around the city within the, within a week or a day or so.
    And you will see like really the is super, super young. I think it is suffer from the same problems of many of the African countries, which is high unemployment, right. They don't have enough jobs for these kids. And I think the average age in a, I believe in 2030 in Africa is going to be about 14 years old.
    Right. We're going to have the, the youngest, exactly. The youngest population in the world itself. Right. And I think it's going to be really problematic if they cannot find employment for, but again, luckily I think Bitcoin is international currency and I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to sound like Bitcoin.
    Maybe it's going to solve everything. But to me, what happens actually at this point is that now these kids are very young. Yeah. Very savvy because they grew up with the internet. Pretty much, right. They know how to use computers. They know how to use their mobile devices. Everybody has on WhatsApp, everybody's on social media.
    They actually also like get access, access to information. But the only thing that's missing really actually is access to opportunities. Right. But now the things are opening up and like hardware is getting cheaper. You can buy a cheap computer, you can buy a cheap phone. I think it was what's going to happen is that it will open up.
    Basically like, Africa to the world, right? Which means that anybody can freelance and anybody can make money from anywhere. As long as you have skills, you can work at those skills and you have the potential of getting paid with this great new currency.

    Anita Posch [00:30:52] Hmm, expensive is an internet connection in your country because in Simba, for instance, it's very expensive,

    Fodé Diop [00:30:59] it is very, very expensive. And guess what? France owns mostly the telco here.
    Right, right. Because we have, we have, we have orange and orange is a French company. Of course. So the owner bought, I think like 51%, like at least like literally it's literally a 51% attack of our network, you know, that they own off the local company and we are being, I couch really, you know, like for me, for this collection now I pretty much pay about a, I think it's about a dollar, a gig, a pay right now.
    Right. So I have to be tied to my card almost every other day or so to actually get, get my internet connection, because I don't have fiber where I'm at, but I have these, these wifi box that I buy and I pretty much like recharge it with, the cards.

    Anita Posch [00:31:43] So how much money do you need for a month of working for instance?

    Fodé Diop [00:31:47] right now I believe that I spent, on average, I would say, let me see. So maybe like 50, 60 bucks for sure.

    Anita Posch [00:31:57] Mm, mm. Yeah. It's twice the price that IP here, here, but for, for unlimited internet.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:04] And the saddest thing about it is that because actually I learned, I learned online a lot. I can not even play a YouTube video at seven 20 or like 10 80. I have to like don't, don't, downgraded toolbar like four 80, so I can save my connection.

    Anita Posch [00:32:15] Yeah. Yeah. I heard that. And do you also have so-called internet panels in your country? Like, so people only can use WhatsApp for instance.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:25] No, no, no. Have that. Once you, once you pretty much get the collection you get like, basically you're, you're allocated, you're allocated to invent with, and you can access whatever you want.

    Anita Posch [00:32:33] Oh, okay. Because since in Bubba, you can't access the worldwide web, then you only can use WhatsApp.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:39] Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

    Anita Posch [00:32:41] Yeah, yeah.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:41] that's crazy.

    Anita Posch [00:32:42] yeah, exactly.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:44] That is crazy. But no, but

    Anita Posch [00:32:45] I mean, that's.

    Fodé Diop [00:32:46] you know, funny enough, actually, my mom, like my mom when I got here and my mom really thought that like, what's up was the internet because she's on it, like so much that she thinks that everything they used to the internet pretty much or YouTube.

    Anita Posch [00:32:59] Yeah. Many people believe that Facebook is the

    Fodé Diop [00:33:01] Yes.

    Anita Posch [00:33:02] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's horrible. But yeah, it's true. And, and on the other side, for many people in Africa, I think Facebook is the window to the world. It's the first time to have these connections.

    Fodé Diop [00:33:13] Exactly. Exactly. And you know, like Africans, I don't, I'm not sure I don't want to stereotype, but Africans are very gossipy, you know?
    Yeah. They like newly spiral, like spiral the neighbors and see what's what's going on and stuff, you know? So I think like social media is very much, like for the continent for sure.

    Anita Posch [00:33:30] Yeah, maybe we can also say they have a strong sense for community.

    Fodé Diop [00:33:35] Yes. Yes. I think there's a better, that's a better way to put it. They have a village and so we're very strong sense of community.

    Anita Posch [00:33:42] And, and another thing I would like to ask you, how's the banking system in the Senegal

    Fodé Diop [00:33:47] horrible. Oh my God. Let me, let me just like, even, it's funny you ask him about this because even yesterday I just was crying about it to my mom yesterday because I'm like, I went to the bank to deposit some money there and, and I almost waited for two and a half hours actually deposit money in my account catch.
    I just wanted to deposit the cash in my account, actually. Right.

    Anita Posch [00:34:14] what's the, what?

    Fodé Diop [00:34:16] was a queue and it is so slow. And the representatives at the, at the bank tellers are so, so impolite in so disrespectful, it's almost like acting, they're acting like they're doing you a favor. Right? My bank doesn't have a mobile application, which is horrible. My mom's bank banker doesn't have a mobile application.
    If she wants to basically check her balance, she has to physically go to that bank actually into the ATM, but it's there or go inside, talk to a teller. Pretty much. Right. And the systems did I just not very, very actually like, like reliable because a lot of times, even the ATM's don't work, but it's just the service that is offered.
    That is so, so like, so just this, not, not how do I say just, it just like subpar. Actually it does. That's the word. Right. And for me, like coming from the States is it is so hard to actually like really deal with that because I don't, I don't quite understand I'm going here to basically give you business, even give you money for you to operate with.
    Because I took, I put my money, I put it in my bank account and you're going to take it and pretty much do whatever. God knows what with it pretty much. Right. And then you act like you are giving me a service or a favor, which I don't quite understand actually.

    Anita Posch [00:35:21] Yeah. And how is it to get money inside or outside of the country?

    Fodé Diop [00:35:27] it is very difficult of course, because you know, there's always a capital, capital flight capital control. So people are really, the government is always worried about people living, you know, because, because of the level of corruptions here is very terrible because, you know, the, the one in the government, people who are, I mean, have access, you know, tend to do things that are.
    Definitely not legal per se. And, so they try to keep a tight reign on money living and entering the country itself. So you're only allowed of course, a small stash. I'm not sure exactly what the, the max is these days, but it's very low from what I understand, to live with or to actually enter the country with, you know, so it's very, very, there's definitely a couple of control CCM as a China.

    Anita Posch [00:36:04] Wow. I didn't know that. I thought that's only in Zimbabwe.

    Fodé Diop [00:36:07] Oh, no, very, very much. So it's almost like when you look at the, when you look at the banking system in, in, in, in, in Nigeria, right. I think it's called the inter interest, which I can't even what it's called actually, but it's very fast internally. It's like, it's amazing, right? If you, as long as you're doing basically payments within the country itself, but when it comes to like sending money abroad or anything like that, it's very, very slow actually, because you go through levels of levels of like, regulation and verification and such, right.
    They do not want any kind of money living in the country and the. And for them and them not know exactly how much is living and who's going to and such. Right. But again, I believe because again, like the level of corruption out here is just way, way

    Anita Posch [00:36:46] Hmm. Yeah, sure. So, and what are the biggest obstacles actually for people to use Bitcoin in your country? I mean, I could imagine one is that, that they all do. They all speak French.

    Fodé Diop [00:37:04] Yes. That's one of the, really one of the first thing I was, I was going to say it was actually, I think the language is, is the biggest issue, you know, because again, most of the world's knowledge is in English, right? Like I think about like 4% actually of the world where the knowledge is in French.
    All right. So I feel like you, like information gets here a little bit slower. Somehow white people are not really up to speed with what's going on with crypto. Of course they hear about things here and there, like really what's happening, but I don't think they know like, like, like, like they do in Nigeria, in Kenya, in Ghana.
    Right. And if we notice actually also in Africa, there are like Bitcoin exchanges all over the place, except for French-speaking Africa. If we think about it, right. This like really make exchanges in, in, in, in Ghana, again in South Africa, in, in, in Nigeria, in European, in Kenya, but nothing in the French speaking, French speaking places.
    Right. Because. The banks central banks are like highly tied to France. And I'm sure France doesn't really want is really, is not really one to maybe cryptocurrencies taken over in Africa because they will undermine their authority or undermined influence here in, in, in this region. And also think of that.
    Maybe there needs to be more translation of the knowledge itself, right? Because even on all on the web, there's maybe a little bit, or no French speaking or French content about Bitcoin and crypto and such actually online. So maybe it's happened more.

    Anita Posch [00:38:28] Yeah. So that's basically your job.

    Fodé Diop [00:38:32] Yes. And actually, yeah, and that's why, that's why I started, I started my own meetup as soon as, as soon as I realized that I was going to be here for a minute. I said, okay, well, let me just at least like put a meetup together, I'll get people to put together. And then I will see maybe gauge the level of interests and maybe what people want to learn and know.
    And, yeah, and just how I started. And now I have almost like 330 people, I believe.

    Anita Posch [00:38:55] That's great. And how do you, do you meet, I mean, do you do that online now?

    Fodé Diop [00:39:00] Yes. Well, I was doing that in person. I think we did it like three to four times a person, and there was before the confinement, but then as soon as the government came and said that there was going to be confinement, I said, okay, well maybe we need to move it online. And then we'll see what happens after.
    But I really do like the online, the online format itself, because it allows me to do it. Must have to do it from home and I couldn't really be productive. And then like, really jump on the mic on, on Saturdays. What do we use do on Saturdays between 11 and 1:00 AM? And then, yeah, go from there.

    Anita Posch [00:39:26] so that's great. So, so basically if there are any French speaking Bitcoiners in the group of our listeners today, yeah, I mean, context for Deere and help him support him.

    Fodé Diop [00:39:39] Exactly. Cause I was like, get the knowledge out here because I think it's very, very important. and that that's really, I think that's a really the biggest obstacle. Is it just the language, you know, because even if you want to contribute, because I realized that initially, because I'm in a group right now with a chain called labs and I tried to take the same knowledge to the, or, or the same material and use it in the group itself.
    But I realize how hard it is. Right. Because these kids don't speak English. Right. And you know, when you go to GitHub, it's all in English. We knew that I'd tried to get material for like really software and really software engineering as a whole like globally. It's mostly in English, you know? So there's definitely this crack, there's this gap per se in the lot Gesell gets lost in translation.
    So for me, I've been just trying to, sometimes even I went through like some products in my native language itself, which is one of. My, my coordinator of language. Right? Because French also has a problem because in French, you know, if you think about it, yes, I can speak French because I want it to be more accessible to actually, to other French speaking African countries that are here.
    But when I'm at home in Senegal, I realized that sometimes that maybe I need to speak more one off because I want to touch him like personally and deeply and individually, you know, because it's very different. If someone basically explained to you a concept in your native tongue, right. Because you understand it at a much, much, much deeper level.
    Right. So for me, I think it's important to just even keep it multilingual per se, and then just to keep trying and until I get it right. And also I felt like maybe it doesn't have to be myself alone, you know, as soon as I can maybe train two, three or three more people, then they can maybe in turn, train other people.
    And really just that's been my goal.

    Anita Posch [00:41:09] what would be things that you would need, or would, would ask for support for, from our listeners other than French translations?

    Fodé Diop [00:41:18] actually, that's a hard, that's a hard too, because it's so hard to like, To say that, that I need this or that in order it's very difficult to per se. Right. Because I'm like, I feel like I'm just like discovering things as I go and for now I think it's okay. Because, again, like really maybe like some translated lecture documents, per se, maybe written documents, or maybe even in video format, an audio format or in podcast format, I think any kind of media would work.
    Right. So I would say like, if contribution, I would say any kind of media in French itself and I'll be, I could be to get away with it. You know, if you want to send it to me, if you want me to help, like disseminated in Africa, you know, French Africa definitely contacted me per se. And, yeah, I would say just keep supporting somehow whichever way, or maybe be creative and come up with something, you know, I dunno

    Anita Posch [00:42:01] Hmm. Hmm. Okay.

    Fodé Diop [00:42:02] put it that way.
    Yes.

    Anita Posch [00:42:04] Yeah. Great. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the potential use cases for Bitcoin that you see in Senegal. I have got some survey results from, local Bitcoins, the peer to peer trading platform where you can buy Bitcoin. they have asked the registered users some questions about how they use Bitcoin and also the users in the Senegal.
    And I find it quite interesting because. one question was, for what purposes have you bought Bitcoin? And 33% of the people said for trading 32% said for investing and, that, that, that means long time holding for profit 11% for payments and 8% for learning about Bitcoin.

    Fodé Diop [00:42:52] I see, I see.

    Anita Posch [00:42:53] and interesting Lee enough, because I always think that remittances are such a big part of it, you know, but it's only 1.1 0.4% of local Bitcoin users say they use it for remittances

    Fodé Diop [00:43:07] but yeah, but that's actually, that'd be, that'd be for them sending money out somewhere else. Right.

    Anita Posch [00:43:12] in and out. I think

    Fodé Diop [00:43:13] In and

    Anita Posch [00:43:14] just.

    Fodé Diop [00:43:15] Yes. Because, you know, honestly, actually this, that sounds about right. Those numbers, because people are still trading, you know, within the telegram groups or WhatsApp groups, you know?
    I have people here finally, finally meeting actually local sellers now actually, is it becoming more, just a more, how do I say, it's becoming more, actually.

    Anita Posch [00:43:31] Peer connected

    Fodé Diop [00:43:31] Yeah, more frequently now, you know, actually now I'm focused on finding people and then they don't even actually add that much margin on top of the current price, actually.
    So it's very affordable, but it's just a people do not know yet, like how to really, you know, keep this token secure and like the stuff about like custodial catalog, like custodial stuff in does, does it, that's really still a big issue. Right. And again, let us to do with education. Like right now. Right. So for me, like, because if you're talking about like use cases, like, one of the, the reason actually, why I'm working on a, I can tell you my plan, maybe someone was copied for Africa.
    That'd be great as well. So I can, I'm going to share, I want to share this idea. Right. And because it's only one of my own idea, because what I noticed that I was basically paying attention to Nigeria because that's the most active. crypto community of the queer community right now in Africa, per se.
    Right? So like, remittance is very, very important because we have also a lot of people from Africa in the database portal, right? Some of them are in Germany. Some of them are in, in Italy, in France, a lot, obviously in America, in China everywhere. Right. And people always try to send money back to Africa somehow somewhere.
    So one of the most compelling use cases that I've seen recently actually is a company called a cinder cash, send cash that Africa from Nigeria. Right because of the use case actually is amazing because what they do is pretty much, they have a system set up where you can send Bitcoin to any bank account in Africa.
    Oh, sorry. In Nigeria, per se. Right. It's them send cash to Africa and also Africa, but I'll focus on some cash itself because to me lecture, that sounds a lot of problems. For one, you don't have to worry about touching the us dollar. Right. And then having to worry about like licenses and all these things, because people are not sending us dollars to Nigeria.
    They are sending Bitcoin to Nigeria. But on the other side of what they have actually is a very active marketplace. So the marketplace itself is called by Bitcoin. That Africa. Right. So they have people peer to peer selling, buying and selling Bitcoin into Uber would invest in what's what, like when, when I speculate a little bit, and such like they have, they have, they already have a marketplace.
    So on the other side, on some cash, what happens is when someone basically sends Bitcoin to a bill account in Nigeria, the first thing that they do is they sell the Bitcoin immediately in the marketplace itself. Right. And they take the money and they deposited the recipient's bank account. So there's really, yeah, of course.
    There's like a little bit of a risk that they take on per se. Right. But I think it's actually, it's, it's an amazing kind of a platform because now there's a lot of regulations I believe you don't have to necessarily, you can do, you can definitely get around maybe somehow, because now you don't have to worry about like, maybe even having like registration per se, right.
    Because someone is just sending a Bitcoin. In the country itself, right? So governments are mostly worried about money leaving the country, but not necessarily money coming in. So for them coming in is always wins. So if you have make it as easy as possible for someone to do, basically take Bitcoin and send it to a bank account in Africa, I think it is a win-win situation.
    And if it's like seamless and frictionless, that will make remittances even take off even more. And as I heard recently, they are making like crazy, crazy numbers per month, actually once a one month. And it also went to YC in a D they're also like a YC graduate. I think like 20, 19 or 2018. So they're doing very well.

    Anita Posch [00:46:33] Hmm. And do you want to build that for Senegal

    Fodé Diop [00:46:36] Yes, actually, actually like for French speaking part of actually really unfortunately the French market here. And I think, like I said, that as a crucial does a crucial thing, because if you can do something like that, it makes it very, very simple basically to, to deal with like regulation and all these things, because what you're doing, again, again, you are not putting U S dollars, so you don't have to worry about like, U S laws and all these things, because someone is pretty much sending, sending BTC.
    do you, and you are just like converting it to the local currency in deposit, depositing it in someone's bank account.

    Anita Posch [00:47:05] I don't know so much about regulations, but I think that there will be some

    Fodé Diop [00:47:09] course, of course, of course, of course, of

    Anita Posch [00:47:11] Yeah. But you think it's doable?

    Fodé Diop [00:47:13] and I think it's doable because again, and we're seeing it more and more, right. There's also this and this is not an Africa, actually. This is in, in Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, or Belarus, but I believe, Ukrainian team actually build this called trusty T R U S T E.
    Application, right. So it's a non-custodial application. You pretty much log in and you say, Hey, I want to buy or sell Bitcoin. And you, if you want to, if you want to, if you want to sell Bitcoin, you pretty much just input your bank account information in there. And then within an hour you will pretty much would be called, will be sold and you will receive money in your bank account. Yeah, exactly. Right.

    Anita Posch [00:47:48] yeah.

    Fodé Diop [00:47:49] Yes. And it's purely, it's purely the. Peer to peer . So I think like this is the kind of solution. We still have to think about it because even before I was thinking maybe actually, well, to make it simple, I should just like, maybe, maybe have it custodial in the beginning, but then actually I refused because I said, okay, well this is still against the ethos of Bitcoin, right?
    It should really be non-custodial because again, natural keys, not your money. Right. So even if it's hard, but I think if necessary people will learn how to use mnemonics, they will learn how to use passphrases. But it just has to be about education.

    Anita Posch [00:48:24] exactly. Yeah. I think if you understand the basic foundations and the basic principles and how to secure your coins, I mean, it's not that many steps, but you just have to ex understand it one time.

    Fodé Diop [00:48:39] Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Right. So that's actually why for me, I kept saying that maybe, you know, like the adoption would not be like, it would take a little bit more time because it's not like a farmer African, African farmers just want to get up one day and start using Bitcoin. I don't think it's like that.
    I think like the target really should be the more educated part of the population. Right. So students, people in colleges and this, I could agree, like I said, again, it's a very young population, right. So if we target like, like, like students in, in, in, in, in schools and people who are maybe like have jobs or like a little bit more educated, right.
    If we take the older population, they would intern train everybody else. Right. So he has to be like a top-down approach. You train the part of the population does most like a, is most likely to understand the technology and understand how to basically security, security assets and be able to trade with it, spend, save, trade and do all these things.
    Right. And I think ultimately the rest of the population will catch up, but we don't have to kind of expect to like everybody to just like really get a Bitcoin right away. It would have to be credible. You you'd have to be credible. It would have to be on a top-down basis by basically, right. We train the masses to train everybody else.

    Anita Posch [00:49:43] Yeah, I think that's the right way to go. And what I also found interesting with this survey was there's one question, which currency do you prefer? West African frog or Bitcoin. I mean, these are registered users at local Bitcoins, but, but, 49% said West African Franc.

    Fodé Diop [00:50:09] Yes. Yes we can because it's very hard because if you don't know how to sell it, if we don't, if we don't, if we, if we can, because sometimes you need cash here, you know, their needs there, like really present needs. Because again, it's not a very developed country. It's a developing country. Yes. But the level of problems is just a whole different dimension.
    Right. We have like really, really serious problems here. And if we can not have cash, you cannot solve your problems. Unfortunately. Right. So it has to be like an easy, the, the easy way to on-ramp off-ramp from Bitcoin.

    Anita Posch [00:50:36] Yeah. Have you seen, a spike or any sign of more people using or getting interested in

    Fodé Diop [00:50:44] Oh yes. Oh

    Anita Posch [00:50:45] your group now in the last year and since COVID.

    Fodé Diop [00:50:48] since the COVID and now that I'm here, like I'm really known as a person now that's actually literally doing crypto stuff. Oh my I, customer calls, my messages on LinkedIn on Twitter, email, everything, even the government people I'm supposed to get on television, I should have soon.
    I believe also talk about, be quiet. Yeah. So it's been like really the uptick axis basically from, for the year I've been here. It's been disrupted, not like exponentially every month almost.

    Anita Posch [00:51:12] So our guy from Senegal who went to the States, came back and now he's the, he knows everything about

    Fodé Diop [00:51:21] Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So I'm supposed to be like, I'm like the go to person. Now everybody has a question. Anybody, like, even this last night, someone sent me a message on LinkedIn. so it's a web, it's a web development shop and they said, Hey, how do we do this plan? One wants to pay us in Bitcoin. How do we, you know, which one do we use or how do we get it to our bank account?
    I said, okay, well, this is a problem right now. And, pretty much kind of help them guide them through the process of like how, like, how do we navigate the transaction?

    Anita Posch [00:51:46] Great. That's great to hear that. Yeah. Great. I think it's great that you're back at least for a time. I don't know how long you want to stay, but, for a Bitcoin adoption in Senegal, this is, a, a lucky, I don't know how it's in English. A lucky thing. Yeah. It's,

    Fodé Diop [00:52:01] Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, actually. Yeah, I mean, that's been my, my dream, like for the longest time, because I felt like if I can maybe get some of that, the knowledge for some people here, like I would have succeeded pretty much. Right. Because that was really my, what I was thinking about.
    Or when I was in San Francisco, I said, well, this knowledge needs to get out, get out there. And when I got here, I knew that definitely the region was behind. Right. I knew that for sure. So I said, well, it would take someone like myself to come in here and pretty much like, try to at least like, you know, just, just get some of the knowledge out, you know, and demystify.
    Some of them would have stopped people to hear or read that maybe this is a scam, don't do this, or blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yes, they're are like scams out there, but obviously you have to be intelligent and really be educated about the thing. And so you can make your own decision. Right, but I wouldn't, I'm not here to scam anybody.
    You can lay. I'm very reachable. I'm very much so in social media everywhere, pretty much. So it's not really in my interest to be here and to talk about something that actually might go away tomorrow. I truly believe in my heart that distinct would work right. And a hundred percent feeling like this, even if not sure what today, from what I read the white paper.
    Right. There was like, there was, I had this epiphany. I can't even, I can't even explain. So for me to truly believe in this thing and to want to work on it, full-time, I'm pretty much like a hundred percent in crypto and up within a Bitcoin per se. Like it is, it says a lot about really what I believe in this technology, what I believe about the disability and what it can do for the continent.
    Okay.

    Anita Posch [00:53:22] Yeah, great. I completely understand and support that. And I feel the same. I feel the same. And I say, thank you for your work and for you, you have been doing and what you will do, in the

    Fodé Diop [00:53:35] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much. This is just the beginning. We haven't even started yet.

    Anita Posch [00:53:38] Yeah. That's the beginning. That's the liftoff.

    Fodé Diop [00:53:42] this is the liftoff, you know, because we, we haven't even talked about lightening yet because I believe that lightening will be the, it will be the gateway, you know, honestly,

    Anita Posch [00:53:48] Exactly.

    Fodé Diop [00:53:49] met, you know, because the, the stampede is coming, the stampede is coming. I think like the, the same, the same, congestion though, the happened in Ethereum with trees and all that stuff will happen in Bitcoin as well.
    And at that time, like lightning will look very appealing at that point, because then, and right now it's only later solution and it's already working and I believe that actually is the future.

    Anita Posch [00:54:08] Yeah. Yeah, I believe so too, because also the transaction fees in Bitcoin on the blockchain on the base layer will rise again. And people, people in countries like us don't have the money to pay that transaction fees.

    Fodé Diop [00:54:20] 100%. And for me, and it's funny because sometimes people here, I will say that the reaction when we'd like to use Ethereum and all these things, and they realize that, you know, you have to pay these gas fee and it's other token basically, which is so complex, you know what I'm saying? So he's always, he's always, he's always will be.
    I said, okay, well, we be quiet. You only pay the transaction fee in a, Sam is determined in the, in the same currency. Or in the same unit, basically, you don't have to worry about this dessert translation between what and what, right. So, you know, and luckily for me too, like, more in development itself, so I'm able to like follow someone somewhere to some of the stuff that's going on.
    And I have some great people, like a chain called labs, like merchant and Adam genres and all this plays into these people. And I'm going to start a group right now and I'm learning a lot. I'm getting even deeper with Bitcoin and understand more what's happening with a mentor and all these things. And I look at it and I was like, okay, well, this thing is getting congested just as much again, too.
    Right. Because like, we have like all this institutional money coming in. So for sure, at some point we will have like some traffic jam, like in the network itself. Right. So it would only make sense to basically move over to like a lyrical solution.

    Anita Posch [00:55:20] yes, definitely. And two other layers

    Fodé Diop [00:55:23] Other layers as well.

    Anita Posch [00:55:24] and whatever.

    Fodé Diop [00:55:25] Yup. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

    Anita Posch [00:55:27] So it's great. It has been great to talk with you. Thanks for the insights about, because I think. I think not many people know anything about

    Fodé Diop [00:55:36] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, you know, because people like, maybe are afraid of like learning French or something like that, you know, it's unfortunate.

    Anita Posch [00:55:44] is there anything that we have left out that you want to say or add?

    Fodé Diop [00:55:48] well maybe the only part that I haven't touched touched on really is the work that, Richard, Richard Meyer is doing with, like, like

    Anita Posch [00:55:56] Yeah, I know what you mean. mesh

    Fodé Diop [00:55:58] Mesh networks. I think that is amazing, right? Because again, we're talking about the tool, the technology to fight oppression. I think that the, the, the, the, the France owning so much of the like African telcos is really hurtful and it's really nice to stop as well.
    Right. So if you're talking about like, maybe using, using technology to fight a currency operation using technology to fight the network operation, I think like that should, the kind of work also can have a huge impact itself, like here as well.

    Anita Posch [00:56:26] Yeah, definitely. just as an explanation for our listeners, Richard Myers is working with, or for, for a company called and, they, produce, small devices. Which are, like, receive us and send us for data. So you basically, you can build your own network of, receiving and communication devices without having an internet connection or any mobile connection.
    And yeah, that's a great thing to decentralize also ourselves from the dependency on centralized telecom companies, telecom communications.

    Fodé Diop [00:57:03] Exactly. Actually he's doing, he's doing like way more actually these days he has some things coming up I believe. And you will see like it's really, truly, truly revolutionary. And I'm

    Anita Posch [00:57:12] Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't know what she's working on now, but you can send a Bitcoin basically with these

    Fodé Diop [00:57:17] Yup. Yup. Yup.

    Anita Posch [00:57:18] Yeah. Yeah.

    Fodé Diop [00:57:19] Yeah. It's amazing. It's really, it's really a great time to be alive.

    Anita Posch [00:57:24] that's true. Yeah. In many, in many, many people will say not really. But we are, we are the open-minded optimist.

    Fodé Diop [00:57:34] yes, yes. You have to be, you always have to believe that it's going to work out otherwise what's the point of living. Yeah.

    Anita Posch [00:57:41] You're complete you're you're right. Yup. Thanks for

    Fodé Diop [00:57:43] Yeah, you're welcome.

    Anita Posch [00:57:45] that's a great ending to a chat and I'm happy that, we have met and we have been talking now.

    Fodé Diop [00:57:53] it's amazing. It's amazing. A small world.

    Anita Posch [00:57:56] Yeah. We'll see, in context in this soil in another way.

    Fodé Diop [00:58:00] absolutely. I need to thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It was a great conversation.

    Anita Posch [00:58:04] Thank you. Yes

    Fodé Diop [00:58:06] Anita bye.

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