Grey Jabesi: Bitcoin in South Africa


Topics

This time I am talking about Bitcoin in South Africa with Grey Jabesi the founder of Crypto University and the Hardc0re Crypt0 YouTube channel. In the first segment, you will hear a message from Miss Aurra. She is talking about the result of our call for bitcoin donations at St. Anne’s school in Harare. The school had to be closed down due to the corona pandemic and a lack of funding. It is positive news. Don’t let that hold you back. The school needs permanent funding!

Topics:

  • Importance of Bitcoin
  • Why is Bitcoin especially important for Africa?
  • Characteristics of South Africa
  • Financial inequality
  • Economical situation
  • Effects of Covid-19
  • Bitcoin use-cases in South Africa

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Recording Date: November 3, 2020
Location: Online

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    Transcript

    This is the human edited transcript for Episode 85 with Grey Jabesi.

    Anita Posch [00:16:37] Hello, Grey. Thanks for taking the time to be my guest today.

    Grey Jabesi [00:16:40] Thanks Anita and thank you for having me on your show.

    Anita Posch [00:16:43] Yes, it's very interesting. I'm doing a series of interviews with people from Africa, from the Sub-Saharan part of Africa. I don't know if you know, I've been to Zimbabwe and Botswana in February this year and made some episodes about the situation in the country and about Bitcoin there. That's also the place where I met Alakanani Itireleng. Who you know, I guess?

    Grey Jabesi [00:17:12] Yes, I do. From Botswana and does a lot of work here.

    Anita Posch [00:17:17] Exactly. Please, before we dig deeper into the situation in South Africa, where you are located, tell us a little bit about yourself and, introduce yourself. What's your background? Where are you located? What are you working on?

    Grey Jabesi [00:17:33] My name is Grey Jabesi and I'm an entrepreneur, very much involved in the crypto space. So, I founded Crypto University which is one of the largest education platforms for training cryptocurrency investors and traders in the world. I also own Hardcore Crypto which is the largest cryptocurrency YouTube channel in Africa. Which is very unfortunate at the moment because YouTube took it down for absolutely no reason. So that's very sad. Then, I also founded Khodo which is a cryptocurrency exchange currently running in Malawi. It makes it easier for people in East Africa to buy and sell cryptocurrencies.

    Anita Posch [00:18:23] Okay. Great.

    Grey Jabesi [00:18:25] Then, I was in tech. I was in computer graphics before, 3D animation, web development and so on and so forth. So I just combine all these different skills to make them more useful for the crypto space.

    Anita Posch [00:18:39] Interesting and you don't know any reason why YouTube took your channel down?

    Grey Jabesi [00:18:46] They say community guidelines but then it's unclear exactly why. I think it's a mistake but then, to get it back, I don't even know how to go about it. Multiple crypto channels have been taken down before but have been reinstated within, say 24 hours or a few days but mine is not coming back.

    Anita Posch [00:19:06] Yes, it's awful. I also saw that your Twitter handle has been taken down.

    Grey Jabesi [00:19:13] Exactly. On Saturdays, I do live streams. So usually, I do giveaways. I'll probably give five people dollars of Bitcoin each for asking good questions during the live stream. So I think because of the keyword, 'BTC giveaway' in my title of the video, it could be that the algorithm on both Twitter and YouTube was triggered and then, suspended the accounts because of the recent scams that are happening with the BTC giveaways and YouTube and Twitter. I think that's it but then obviously the support team are very bad. You send messages they don't reply or anything like that.
    It's very sad for the African community at the moment.

    Anita Posch [00:20:02] Yes, it's difficult with these automated systems. As you say, they just take it down because their bot says, "This is a scam here."
    It's not possible here in Europe to make serious advertisements about Bitcoin on Google or on Facebook.
    So yes, if you do giveaways, I'm sure that's the reason. How many subscribers do you have on your YouTube channel?

    Grey Jabesi [00:20:33] 35,000.

    Anita Posch [00:20:24] Wow, that's really a pity. So, I hope you get it back soon.

    Grey Jabesi [00:20:41] We hope so.

    Anita Posch [00:20:43] Yes. Why did you build one of the companies, the exchange, in Malawi and not in South Africa?

    Grey Jabesi [00:20:52] I'm originally from Malawi and in South Africa, there's a lot of exchanges. It's easier for you to buy Bitcoin or crypto in South Africa than it is in America, for example. South Africa has a very efficient banking system, very good exchanges. Whereas in Malawi, there was nothing. So we the only exchange there. It's a good business opportunity but also an initiative for me to take crypto in areas where it's needed the most.

    Anita Posch [00:21:17] Yes, sure. Good idea. Africa is a huge continent and I have a lot of listeners from the United States and from Europe, can you please describe the country a little bit? How big is it? Where is it? How many inhabitants has South Africa?

    Grey Jabesi [00:21:34] You mean South Africa or Malawi? Which one do you want to know?

    Anita Posch [00:21:37] South Africa. I mean, Malawi is also interesting. Maybe we can do another episode about Malawi. [chuckles]

    Grey Jabesi [00:21:44] Yes, for sure. So South Africa is very large. If you're looking at the world map and you look at the African map, it's the country below the map at the very end. That's why it's called South Africa. The southern part of Africa.

    Anita Posch [00:22:00] Yes. [laughs]

    Grey Jabesi [00:22:01] It's very beautiful. Diverse culture, diverse people, very rich history and it's a very enthusiastic country. It has a lot of things going on. Also, very active in the tech space. Whether in blockchain, AI, and or other technologies that are going on. So, I think it's a perfect country in Africa to adopt crypto because it has all the resources that it needs as compared to many other African countries. They have the infrastructure here. The internet is very efficient. Even though still expensive for the majority but it's there and it works perfectly. It's a very good spot for business as well for people because it's easier for everyone to travel.

    Anita Posch [00:22:46] So I've been to South Africa 10 years ago, I think in 2010. I was in Cape Town and in the surroundings. I can remember that it was a little stressful for me coming from Europe because people told us you should not go out, in the dark or do a bike ride alone because it's so dangerous. Is this still the same situation? How is the economical situation? I can also remember there are very many poor people in South Africa too. Is it still the same now?

    Grey Jabesi [00:23:22] Yes, very much so. Obviously, the whole thing of when tourists come in, they get advised to not go out. You have to know that stuff. There's some truth in it but obviously, it's exaggerated. It's better safe than sorry but typically, it's fine. There's a very wide wealth gap. So you also have a lot of crime just like countries that have those kinds of problems. If you're within the big cities, you're pretty much safe. It gets dangerous. The more away you get from the city, the more dangerous it can be.
    People live here, perfectly, so it's not as bad as people make it sound. There is huge inequality. That's why South Africa is a very unique country because I think everybody here, in some way, they're working towards making this country a lot more equal and creating opportunities for everybody. That's why it's a very energetic country with a lot of problems but also a lot of opportunities and enthusiastic people from around the world trying to make things work. So it's just a very exciting place to be. I believe. For people who are trying to change the world or whatever. You have a lot of reasons here to do it.

    Anita Posch [00:24:43] I guess in South Africa, are also a lot of very young people like you between 20 and 30, who want to change things.

    Grey Jabesi [00:24:53] Absolutely. There is a magnitude of young people that are enthusiastic about it. They're trying to do so many different things. That's why you see a lot of activities, especially in tech. The industry that I'm involved with because of the history of this country, there is this energy or aura that's around it. Everybody, especially the young people, they're trying to do something to fix things. I think it's a very exciting and motivating thing. People from different backgrounds who understand what challenges are faced by their communities. They're trying to make the most of the opportunity that they have now. So I love that part of the game here.

    Anita Posch [00:25:36] When did you come to South Africa?

    Grey Jabesi [00:25:39] About 10 years ago.

    Anita Posch [00:25:41] Oh, okay. How did you find out about Bitcoin and what gained your interest in Bitcoin?

    Grey Jabesi [00:25:49] I was on Reddit, to begin with. So I was just going through an AMA with Bill Gates. People were asking him questions. Back then, the Reddit AMAs were very popular. So people were asking him about, "Hey, what do you think about Bitcoin?" And all that stuff. Then, he was giving some answers.
    So I was like, "Hey, this Bitcoin thing keeps on popping up. Let me look at what it is." Then, I Googled it. I think I ended up on bitcoin.com or something. Then, somehow, I ended up buying a little bit of Bitcoin off Local Bitcoins. I think it was localbitcoins.com. I bought a little bit of it and I forgot about it. Then, it popped up again to me. I realized that the coins that I bought were worth a little bit more. It struck my interest and I started looking more into it. To learn more about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. Then, it became more clear to me after that point that this has the potential to change the world.
    It's addressing some of the problems that I have faced before in Malawi and in other places regarding the banking system. I felt very empowered that now I'd be a real global citizen. I can be able to do business with anyone in the world because I used to be a freelancer. It used to be a mission when I find a gig online and it gets canceled because for the employer to be able to pay me will be a pain for them. It was just going to be a pain in the ass. So they would be like, "You know what? We not going to do this because of payment. It's too complicated." I found Bitcoin and that changed immediately.

    Anita Posch [00:27:29] How did you find people who were willing to give you Bitcoin for your work? How did you find those?

    Grey Jabesi [00:27:40] I was finding those on Facebook. So what happened was I met this guy called Paul. He's an American guy and he put up a Facebook post saying that, "Hey, I'm selling some Bitcoin. If you're in this area, I can sell you some Bitcoin available." Then, I messaged him and this was actually my first encounter with crypto. So I messaged the guy, saying, "I want to buy the Bitcoin."
    I didn't even have the money but I was just curious. I wanted to just know more about it. So he said, "Okay, let's go meet at this hotel."
    I just went on there. I didn't buy the Bitcoin. I didn't have the money but I was just asking him questions like, "Hey, how about this? What is that? Can you explain this thing, how it works, more?" Then, later on, after I figured it out was he the guy that I ended up going back to and we did some things together. He even gave me a job to be updating his websites. He owned a lot of crypto domains. So I could create some content on top of it so that he can sell them later and then, he could pay me in Bitcoin.

    So that was also another direct Bitcoin community member that I had access to. So when I got into Bitcoin very much, that's when I ended up working with Paul and then I got exposed to a lot more people who were in the Bitcoin space.

    Anita Posch [00:28:54] Cool. I guess you have a lot of friends and people around you who are also entrepreneurs. Did they see what you do and learn from you and also start using Bitcoin?

    Grey Jabesi [00:29:06] Yes, of course. I have influenced a lot of people into crypto, more than anyone on the African continent with my YouTube channel, Facebook and all these social media channels and my story as well because a lot of people can relate to it. Being entrepreneurial, I've managed to take every other business that I've created or anything that I've been involved with and, put a little bit of crypto in there. So that a lot more people get exposed to it. Since then, I don't even know how many people I've helped into crypto but every now and again, especially during bull runs, I get messages. People saying, "Hey, man, I went into crypto three years ago because of you now, this and that. Thank you so much."

    Whether they made a lot of money or they quit their job, they're now doing something full-time on crypto, or they became a blockchain developer and so on and so forth.

    Anita Posch [00:29:59] Super. Can you tell me, how's the situation? Do the people prefer Bitcoin, BTC, to other cryptocurrencies, or are they using also Ether for paying stuff?

    Grey Jabesi [00:30:14] It's mainly Bitcoin because it's very popular. That's what people largely want when they say 'Bitcoin' or 'cryptocurrency' but, the more so because this is now data, I can give you some insights from Crypto University. Crypto University is the largest training platform for investors and traders in Africa. Not in Africa, in the world but we have a lot of African learners. From beginners to advanced. What tends to happen at the beginning, people just want the Bitcoin but the more they learn about it, they learn about the fee structures, and so on and so forth. Then, they are now able to diversify so they can get into Bitcoin Cash or Ethereum. Depending on the situation. Just so that they can make it convenient for themselves. When Bitcoin is very high on transaction fees, I've seen people now starting to switch into Ether. When Ether is too high, they would go back to Bitcoin or would just use Bitcoin Cash. So there is now a second layer or a second group of people that are aware of the differences between the currencies and they're using the right cryptocurrency for the right task.

    Anita Posch [00:31:22] But I guess when the task would be, being a store of value and an investment, then people would use Bitcoin?

    Grey Jabesi [00:31:31] Very much so, yes. Most people understand that but then, people are trading as well. They're doing some daily activities, exchanging value all the time and they're very much aware that Bitcoin, BTC, can be slow and also be expensive at times. So, if you're doing $5 transactions right now, you would get wrecked because the fees are from $3 to $15 at the moment.

    Anita Posch [00:31:56] Yes, you would need to use Lightning but how well known is Lightning now and how many people use it in South Africa? That's the question.

    Grey Jabesi [00:32:06] Not very known. So I know, I love Lightning. Incredible technology but it's cranky as hell. Just the fact that you need to convert your coins into some Lightning coins and use that is very complicated. People want to use Bitcoin directly and to use Lightning is a completely new layer of functionality that somebody has to learn. So I think that is the barrier to entry when it comes to Lightning. It's not that you just send your Bitcoin directly and it compares itself to Lightning.

    Anita Posch [00:32:38] Yes. There are the first wallets that can do that. So you don't have to convert or open a channel by yourself. They do it for you. That's for instance, the Phoenix Wallet. but I understand. If I explain Bitcoin to beginners, I always talk about Bitcoin on the base layer level and not about using Lightning.
    I think that's the next step for people then but it will take some time. The technology is being developed and I guess it will be there in some years. You said that people like to trade and also HODL, invest in money. I have interesting survey results from Local Bitcoins, where you bought your first
    Bitcoin. They made a survey with their registered users, also in South Africa and one of the questions was, "What do you use your Bitcoin for?"
    31% of the people said for trading, 26% for long-term investment and a huge 21% said for learning purposes. I found that's very interesting. Is this something that you also see?

    Grey Jabesi [00:33:53] Yes, very much so. It just depends on which area and also which age group. People, they're more likely to get into it as a store of value and you also have a certain group of people that are enthusiastic. They're now understanding that crypto on its own, is an industry that presents opportunities for them as business people or professionals. Then, you'll have traders.
    The younger people are much more interested in trading because I think that they're trying to evolve into the online way of work, as in the digital economy. They're trying to find opportunities in that. So when they get it, they start learning about online business, or what do you call it? Digital nomad lifestyle or whatever. They come to the currency somehow because they're looking for something that is going to disconnect them from the traditional way of work to something that they can control on the laptop. Then, they come across crypto and they started to think that trading is one of those things.
    To be honest, as a trader myself, I'm aware that cryptocurrency has a lot of trading opportunities that a lot of people can participate and some of the people do actually get into it and become successful. So that has been an easier entry or of interest for younger people. They get into it and then they understand that it's actually broader than they thought. Then, they start doing all the things.

    Then, obviously, there is a smaller base of people that are just in it for experimentation and those people are either converted into real Bitcoin enthusiasts or they just die off at the very same level. Maybe they just buy and give the coins. They either forget about it or they get access to it later.

    Anita Posch [00:35:39] Yes. For me, trading is not one of the things I do with Bitcoin because I think the small traders will always lose. It's a little bit like going to the casino for me and I also don't go to the casino. So I believe in the basic fundamentals of Bitcoin and what it can do. That it's uncensorable and permissionless and can be sent worldwide. So I guess that's also a reason why you are into Bitcoin?

    Grey Jabesi [00:36:08] Exactly. Yes. It takes very little work for an African person to understand what Bitcoin is because most of them, know what bad or fragile banking systems look like. They have experimented with them.
    They understand when things don't work. So for a lot of African people, it's very easy for them to understand Bitcoin because they just know how bad and how incompetent these other traditional means of, whether sending money or storing value, can be. So that is the most important part. Also, the financial sovereignty and opportunities because in Africa, it's like investments is something that most of us have never had access to at a global level.

    For example, the stock market has always been there but for people to have access to it, they had to go through so many hoops and then they paid too much money. Even to get involved in simple markets, like Forex markets, for example, here the brokers charge an exorbitant amount of fees and there's some horse-trading that happens.
    Then crypto, when it came through, for me it completely exposed me to a whole world of opportunities. From investing and trading, without any barriers and without me asking for permission from anyone. So there's a different need for everyone but then, it just depends on what you're already interested in.

    Anita Posch [00:37:43] You said before that in South Africa, the infrastructure is quite good. So, what is then the need for people because I understand in Zimbabwe, in Nigeria and in other countries, it's so difficult. The banking system is broken. It doesn't work, it's expensive, it takes long. So what's the main reason then in South Africa? You said something in an interview about bureaucracy and red tape. What's an example of that?

    Grey Jabesi [00:38:14] So here's the thing, right? This system is very oppressive in a very indirect way. Somebody would never tell you that, "We just don't like you and we're not going allow you to do this or give you access to it." It's a very systematic setup where somebody would tell you that, "We're not going to be able to provide you with this service because you don't qualify, based on these metrics that we have," right "Or we're not going to be able to help you because of this and that." Whatever reason they give, that are valid within that institution.
    Then, you would know that from where you're coming from, you never had that setup to be able to have the metrics that these people are always looking for.

    Whether they're trying to give you a loan or just simply a bank account. There's just so many bureaucracies that it has to go through. Then, a lot of people don't have the tools that validates you within the system to get opportunities. While in crypto, we don't even have that.
    So there is no need for bureaucracy. I can tell you what a lot of people really give up on a lot of things and opportunities because of too much red tape in the traditional finance financial system. Or the system as a whole, not only the financial system. If you're a creative person, you're a hardworking person and you got the greed and the will to do something, crypto will really help you to be able to do certain things. Without having to beg or go through a lot of bureaucracy just to get things done. So that's pretty much what I'm in it for. The bureaucracy in crypto is a lot less.

    Anita Posch [00:40:06] Yes, I agree.

    Grey Jabesi [00:40:08] I can give even a simple example here.

    Anita Posch [00:40:11] Please, yes.

    Grey Jabesi [00:40:12] All these exchanges, the centralized exchanges which are now becoming banks, almost. They do KYC. Well, they say, "We do KYC for good reasons."
    All these African banks and institutions, have also adapted to this whole KYC nonsense and that's what is done but you have so many countries where people don't even have legitimate addresses that are identified by all these big systems. They ask you for zip code, country code, whatever and you see that some countries don't even have those things. Then, it just simply means that you are not able to participate in that ecosystem. Or you might be from Zimbabwe and if you're a Zimbabwean person, you're pretty much barred from a lot of things in the world and participating in a lot of things.

    Whereas in crypto, you don't have to always worry about all those things. Everybody has a chance and to me, that's actually the biggest game-changer for crypto. Is that it allows everybody, without knowing who they are. It's a fair game. Blindly, everything happens and we can all participate in the system.

    Anita Posch [00:41:21] Yes but the regulations are also coming more and more. Every, as you say, bigger exchange does KYC and AML regulations so that they don't get fined. What was it? Is it BitMax? What's the name of the exchange where the CTO has been arrested, in the US?

    Grey Jabesi [00:41:42] BitMax, yes.

    Anita Posch [00:41:44] Yes. So they were having no KYC and tried to be not in the US regulatory area or scheme. Now they have these problems too. So don't you think that this will go everywhere? And that most people also think, "Oh, KYC is important."

    Grey Jabesi [00:42:06] A lot of lawmakers and let's say, regulators, they think they're doing something good for everybody, for the world and for the society, the community. I understand that but what they don't understand is they're actually just trying to protect rich people. To protect their own powers because if it was really about our protecting every other citizen, then they would have come up with models that make it possible, at the same time enforcing regulation but not making it complicated or impossible for certain people to be able to participate in some opportunities.
    So KYC is coming but because the cryptocurrency community or the movement, came to actually combat or to solve those challenges, I think there will be reactions. We have already seen with centralized exchanges now. We've got Uniswap now. Even Binance, they've got the Binance DEX and so on and so forth.

    So I think the more KYC comes, I think the open-source developers are 10 times ahead of the regulators and so on and so forth. They understand the limits of regulation and why we need this decentralized system. So I think for anyone who wants to survive in crypto, they should keep learning. Keep on learning and exploring new opportunities. You might see KYC on some of these exchanges but if you're a Zimbabwean person, you can use Uniswap now. So I think there will be a reaction there. They're still going to have the opportunity as long as you're always willing and looking forward to new opportunities and ways that you can manoeuvre. So that's why we have things, like Crypto University, that help people to be on top of the game. You're always learning new things and how you're going to protect yourself.

    Anita Posch [00:44:04] You think or anticipate that the more KYC, the more the open-source developers in Bitcoin will build decentralized exchanges? Like Hodl Hodl, for instance, and also in Lightning. You cannot see who paid somebody what in Lightning. So I also hope that the privacy in Bitcoin will increase. So that's what you say, basically. You think that they are building more possibilities for decentralized exchanges to buy from there without KYC?

    Grey Jabesi [00:44:42] Yes. I think that's what's going to happen. If you're using centralized platforms like PayPal and all that, you're still going to have a lot of KYC to go through but there will be a segment of the market with decentralized exchanges. Where people who cannot be KYC because of circumstances or where they are in the world, they'll still be able to participate.
    I think the decentralized exchanges will grow larger than the centralized ones. We saw right now that OKEx withdrawals have been suspended and you will see a lot more things like that. Where the governments are coming and attacking crypto exchanges and then people will end up saying, "Oh not your keys, not your money."
    It's just going to take one big event to happen to now encourage a lot of people to start using decentralized exchanges.

    Anita Posch [00:45:22] Now that you said, "Not your keys, not your money," or not your coins. Do many people use non-custodial wallets in South Africa or mostly do they leave their money on exchanges to trade?

    Grey Jabesi [00:45:38] They use centralized exchanges to trade but simply because the centralized exchanges are a lot easier to deal with.

    Anita Posch [00:45:54] Yes.

    Grey Jabesi [00:45:55] The sign-up process, the UX, the user experience is much easier than the decentralized exchanges but in the other parts of Africa, mainly people use non-custodial wallets. Simply because they don't have the typical, traditional local exchanges. So, they would use a blockchain.com wallet or the Bitcoin.com Wallet.

    Anita Posch [00:46:23] Excuse me, I've just lost a question.
    So, in the last month, since the pandemic has started worldwide actually, in every country of the world, did you see a growth in the Bitcoin volume? ln more users. More people interested in it

    Grey Jabesi [00:46:52] During which time?

    Anita Posch [00:46:54] Since March, 2020. In the last year.

    Grey Jabesi [00:46:56] Yes, I can tell you that because I own an exchange. So we experienced a lot of volumes and growth, entirely because of the COVID 19 pandemic. So it was quite interesting. You would think that things would have gone the other way around but crypto saw a lot of traction here. So that was very interesting to see.

    Anita Posch [00:47:19] Yes because I saw it also. There's this platform called Useful Tulips where you can see the volume from Paxful and LocalBitcoins. June 2020 was the first month where their volume almost doubled and it's the highest now. It's higher than in 2018. That's interesting that, that people go to use Bitcoin. Why do you think they do it?

    Grey Jabesi [00:47:47] It's number one. I think there is the speculative part of it where people are looking for opportunities to make money. Usually, people hear about Bitcoin as a money-making scheme. Right. Then, they get into it. They learn more about it then they realize that it's bigger than that. Then, they stay in. They stay within.

    Say in South Africa, for example, that's one part. You also have people that cannot conduct business without cryptocurrencies. Say they are not able to receive payment on their online business and then they figure out crypto. Now, they can service the entire world.

    Then, in the other parts of Africa, they have very strict exchange controls. In Nigeria, for example, people are entitled to $100 a month on their debit card that they can spend online or internationally. So you have people that now learned about Bitcoin, they buy the crypto to be able to spend and buy. Just so you know, largely the people in Africa, in general, they don't really buy Bitcoin to speculate. They buy to use it. They buy, spend it on something then they move on. So that is the largest pool of people and people that are into HODLing so on and so forth.

    Anita Posch [00:49:16] I think the growth in the usage of Bitcoin is, in a way, natural because when more and more people get into it, they get used to it. They see the advantages of it when they use it. So they won't say, "Okay, that was a one-time event." They are going to use Bitcoin further on in the future.

    Grey Jabesi [00:49:36] Exactly. That's actually the type of traction that we need is, where people are genuinely interested in using the tool. Then, it becomes part of their life because you just don't want people to HODL. I think that transactional mechanism has a larger social appeal and social network effects because people are interacting with others.
    So if you want to pay for something and you say, "Okay, it's difficult for me to pay you but I can pay you easily in Bitcoin."
    Now you have another extra person getting into crypto. That one has to find a way of liquidating the Bitcoin or whatever. I think that's exactly the type of traction that we need. People need to learn about Bitcoin as a tool that they can use. Then, once they learn about it, they start staying in, keeping some because they know that they will need some tomorrow. So I think that is the way it's going in Africa. I think that's where it's going to explode even more because it's being used as money.

    Anita Posch [00:50:38] Yes and not only as HODL investment, as in most of the European and Western countries and the US. I understand that you rather HODL it when you have US dollars or euros to spend. I also rather spend my euros but if I have the possibility to use Bitcoin, buy something like a hardware wallet or something, then I also buy it with Bitcoin because I can exchange the money back. I can take the euros and exchange it to Bitcoin again and have my stack back. I also think it's important to build this community around Bitcoiners and to pay them with Bitcoin.

    Grey Jabesi [00:51:25] Yes, I pay all my staff with Bitcoin.

    Anita Posch [00:51:30] Oh, all your staff? Everything also saw your food and your rent?

    Grey Jabesi [00:51:35] Oh, when I say my staff, I mean my team. I pay them with Bitcoin.

    Anita Posch [00:51:39] Oh, so your team earns Bitcoin?

    Grey Jabesi [00:51:42] One hundred percent.

    Anita Posch [00:51:44] Oh, cool. That's great. So what do they do then? When they need to buy food, for instance?

    Grey Jabesi [00:51:50] It's easy. They just have to sell what they need to sell. They do with their money what they want but most people here prefer, people that I work with, prefer to get paid in crypto because sometimes in the part of the world that they're in, there is an arbitrage opportunity. So they might make 10% to 20% extra more money when they sell it in their country.

    Anita Posch [00:52:12] Okay. So you work with an international team?

    Grey Jabesi [00:52:15] Pretty much as a decentralized, global team.

    Anita Posch [00:52:18] Oh, cool. Okay. Grey, thank you very much. Did we miss anything that you would like to say to our listeners?

    Grey Jabesi [00:52:29] Not really and just thank you for having me on the show. It was incredible. I would recommend a lot of people to get on Crypto University. They can go to cryptouniversity.co.za; it's an incredible community that we have there. We have a Telegram group, WhatsApp group. Pretty much, we help fast track the adoption of cryptocurrencies around the world and to keep people up to date with what's going on in crypto and with all the opportunities. Crypto is almost like any other market. It has waves and at different times, different things are much more popular or not.
    We pretty much keep people up to date with what's going on today so that they can be able to explore those opportunities. Today, I think we're launching our smart content development. The basics of smart contract development course, for free which people going to be able to access. For those of you who do not know anything about cryptocurrency, for example, and you're listening to this, you can go to cryptouniversity.co.za and get our basics course, it's completely free. You learn the fundamentals of Bitcoin. Then if you decide to become an investor or a trader, you can also get into one of our courses there and start your journey.

    Anita Posch [00:53:39] Grey, Thank you. I will put that also all in the show notes and where can people find you when your YouTube and Twitter account are suspended? What are you going to do? Do you publish on another platform?

    Grey Jabesi [00:53:47] So luckily, my team had my YouTube channel synced with library. So some of the videos for the last year or so are available in the library but now we're working on shifting on Facebook now. We'll be doing a lot of work on Facebook. I have a Facebook page, hardcore crypto. That a lot of people can follow. We also have the Crypto University Facebook page that a lot of people can follow. So you can find me on Instagram as @greybtc, G-R-E-Y BTC and LinkedIn. Pretty much, if you go through any of my websites, cryptouniversity.co.za or greyjabesi.com, you'll be able to find me from there.

    Anita Posch [00:54:37] Okay. Great. Thank you very much and have a nice day and a good end of the year. You have summer now, right?

    Grey Jabesi [00:54:56] Yes, we have summer.

    Anita Posch [00:54:47] Yes because it's winter. It's going to be winter here and I prefer summer but at the moment, traveling is not possible.
    [laughter]

    Grey Jabesi [00:54:57] Exactly.

    Anita Posch [00:54:58] Okay. So I hope I hear from you again. Maybe we talk about Malawi another time and all the best to you.

    Grey Jabesi [00:55:05] Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

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