Moritz Wietersheim: Why Bitcoin Is Superior to Altcoins or Stock Nonsense Like Wirecard


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Today’s guest is Moritz Wietersheim. Moritz is the CEO and Co-Founder of Crypto Advance a company that focusses on security improvements and the secure management of private keys in the Bitcoin space. Together with CTO Stepan Snigirev the Specter wallet is developed, which allows you to have an air gapped and watch only wallet that runs together with your Bitcoin core node. That way you protect your privacy. Preparing for the interview I found out that Moritz and I we both, started to work full time in the bitcoin space in 2017. Moritz is working and living in Germany and Austria.

Our Topics:

  • His time in Argentina and Brazil, where he learned about hyperinflation
  • The difference between Bitcoin as sound money and easy money
  • Digital Scarcity
  • Other blockchain use-cases
  • Altcoins, Scams and the Wirecard fraud
  • Why bitcoin is superior technology and money
  • Protecting your privacy with the Specter wallet
  • Long-term thinking

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Recording Date: June 23, 2020
Location: Online

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Anita Posch [00:03:41] Hello everybody, my guest today is Moritz Wietersheim. Moritz is the CEO and cofounder of Crypto Advance, a company that focuses on security improvements and the secure management of private keys in the Bitcoin space. Preparing for the interview I found out that Moritz and I, we both started to work full time in the Bitcoin space in 2017.
Moritz is working and living in Germany and Austria. Hello, Moritz, thanks for doing this interview.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:04:15] Hi, Anita. Pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for inviting.

Anita Posch [00:04:19] You're welcome! Moritz at the beginning, please tell us a little bit about yourself. What did you do for a living before you found out about Bitcoin.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:04:29] I have a business background and business development background. So I was working, for 10 years in the Wind energy business, always developing financing, constructing and selling wind projects to investors and financing it with banks. So I have a pretty good knowledge about, renewable energy and finance and, and come from that angle.
And always had a strong interest in currency and monetary systems and investment, bubbles and crashes, and had a good interest in Austrian economics.

Anita Posch [00:05:06] And where did this come from before? I mean, the interest in Austrian economics. I didn't know it before Bitcoin actually.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:05:13] Well, I, I read a book by Ferdinand Lips, which is called Gold Wars. Back around 2005 and, experienced the 2000 internet bubble in Germany, which was quite an interesting experience because a lot of my cousins were doing an internet business now, and everybody was a little bit with like 2017 and it was quite extreme.
And then I was in Argentina after my military service and school. And, this was in 2001. So just a few months before the whole thing collapsed, the banks collapsed there and it was already very extreme. So I always followed the situation there in Argentina and was wondering what was wrong and how this could be fixed and how maybe the system could become more, more robust and why these things happen and why they shouldn't happen.

Anita Posch [00:06:07] Okay. you told me you have also been to Brazil. Was this before or after Argentina?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:06:14] Yes. Well, when I, when I was studying, I did an internship in Brazil and, I had, good friends there, who always told me about the hyperinflation. And you still can sort of feel the effects of the hyperinflation, how the country never really recovered from the hyperinflation of the late eighties and early nineties.
And what was so interesting is that when you asked the people there, how life was to explain you that on the payday on Friday, they got paid and they got basically a huge bag of paper money, and the wife came and picked it up at the job and ran immediately to the supermarket to buy all groceries because the money would be worthless and like 24 hours later.
And now, when I talk to my Brazilian friends about this, who experienced hyperinflation they have really surprisingly trouble to understand Bitcoin and this is something, which is really, really puzzling me. If you are, a person who lived in a situation like in Argentina or Brazil and you experienced how your money stopped working and then, and it still is so difficult for these people to understand Bitcoin you see what kind of adoption problems we would still have to overcome before Bitcoin becomes really a mainstream tool.

Anita Posch [00:07:41] Do you think that they don't understand the concept or the handling the usability or everything actually.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:07:49] So I think that our school system does a very bad job about telling us about, monetary and also legal concepts. So you come out of school and you know, a little bit about art probably and, and whatever. And, but you don't know about money and people don't talk about money and in Germany we have a saying "Ãœber Geld spricht man nicht" so you don't talk about money and it's a, it's a really bad, bad situation.
So we have a very low education level even here in Austria and Germany. And if you try to understand Bitcoin, you have first to understand, but you, you begin to understand, you don't know money and you don't understand money. What it is actually is. And if you look what money actually is, it's basically the technology for us humans to communicate value and allocate resources.
So it's probably the most important technology for humans to collaborate in large societies. And unfortunately it's a, it's a very badly understood technology and you don't learn about it in the newspapers. You don't learn it, learn about it in the mainstream media. Most content is actually more confusing.
So you really have to understand money first in a reasonably good way to understand Bitcoin. And from there you can go.

Anita Posch [00:09:15] Yeah, that's true. Same story for me. I hadn't known how money works or how it's created, how it comes into the economy and how it works before Bitcoin, too. Yeah. And how did you get to know about Bitcoin then?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:09:30] I had a friend visiting me in January, 2017 and she told me blockchain is the amazing thing and it's going to change the world. And so I looked it up like an hour later on, on the internet. And there was a blockchain article and I didn't really understand what problem it was solving. And I was asking them, okay, what is really working on blockchain or in blockchain?
And then I came across Bitcoin, with the next click. And then I totally fell into a rabbit hole and two weeks of nonstop research of watching, Andreas Antonopoulos videos and researching what everybody else from Trace Mayer and Tuur Demeester and all these people were saying about it.
I was struggling to understand the whole mining concept and how this computing power and the hashing works altogether and the whole game theory. And it took me properly I dunno, a rather long time to understand this. And then I, yes, I was working briefly for a cloud mining company in Munich, but it was not what I really wanted to do and I didn't see, that I could contribute anything of great value there and was figuring out then, Hey.
The whole hardware wallet space. There needs to be a lot of improvement because in mid 2017 there were some hacks, and I was thinking, okay, maybe we need some better product here or some better infrastructure here to help individuals and companies to manage their private keys and protect their Bitcoins and private keys.

Anita Posch [00:11:11] Your story sounds a lot like mine, it also took me very long to understand the depth of Bitcoin, you know, the mining and how it, is everything is connected. It's basically like a living organism. And it also seems that step-by-step you saw what the problems are. And then you found the point where you said, okay, I want to work in this space and I know what to do.
That's great.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:11:36] Yeah. So what

Anita Posch [00:11:37] is sort

Moritz Wietersheim [00:11:38] of so amazing about the space that if, if you, if Bitcoin is really successful and I think it has a very, very good chance of doing this, we really have a separation of money and state. And this is a, I think it's a rather good idea. If you're looking to the current macro situation where you have unelected central bankers doing incredible quantitative easing and printing of money. So, and I think a lot of like bad things come from this. It changes the time preference, the time horizon and the whole human behavior. So if you change a basic transactional layer for communicating value in a society and your manipulate it with negative interest rates and super easy printed money, then you distort human activity and action completely.
I believe.

Anita Posch [00:12:37] So, do you see Bitcoin more as a store of value or, I mean, what you say seems you also think that it's going to be a medium of exchange in the future.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:12:47] Yeah, well, I think. Bitcoin is going through different phases. And this was already before plan B wrote about his different clusters. So what I want to say is at the beginning, it was a very nerdy niche project, and a lot of people who, some people who understood what was going on or thought, hey, this is a fun collectible to have, they collected Bitcoin, like a, like a funny internet token.
And from that collectible, it's moving now into a store value into a savings technology phase. So we are currently at a market valuation I don't know, I don't check the price too much at the moment, but maybe, 200 billion us dollars. And, as a, as a savings technology, which cannot be censored, which cannot be really confiscated, which is.
Digital scarcity. And this is a very. Interesting powerful concept. When you think about it's a very attractive store of value technology. And from that with lightning and liquid and other, second layer solutions, we see that we can move into a medium of exchange function for Bitcoin, so that you actually can also buy a coffee with it or make a smaller transactions. And there's a, this is an incredibly dynamic space. And from that, if Bitcoin is very large and boring, then you can also use it as a unit of account that you can really, base contracts on it and you have the stability then, but at the moment Bitcoin is still very small and, and very volatile and it needs to, it needs to absorb more value store, more value than have more, trading and more liquidity and more market participants to have more stability as a store of value.

Anita Posch [00:14:41] this will take its time. I mean, yeah, because I see many people are very impatient and say Bitcoin has failed already. And so they do their own blockchains and their own projects. I mean, you coming from the wind energy sector. I wanted to ask you, do you see any use cases for blockchain there?
I mean, I've heard about things like solar energy being distributed, or paid via blockchain and stuff like that.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:15:11] So yes, paid via blockchain is it's like, it's the it's the question is what do you want to do? What the problem is you're actually solving. And if you really dig into it, you usually see, okay, you don't need a decentralized blockchain or anything like this. So I think Ledger is providing the French wind energy industry with some measuring tools for electricity production or something, but coming from the space I, and I, I planned, electricity stop stations and stuff.
So there's not really a problem I would see, which you could not solve with a database and digital signatures and some time stamping or something. So then there's no need actually for blockchain or something on it. There's no real big problem waiting for blockchain.
So I'm not. Into the whole blockchain space too much to say as Bitcoin, we're trying to be very efficient with, with the block space on the blockchain and to, to use the blockchain as little as possible. And, everybody else is trying to put crypto kitties on blockchains and stuff. So, and I think that was the moment for me, really, when I finally totally realized. Okay. After looking into other projects. Okay. When the crypto kitties in December, 2017, totally clocked and, and blocked the Ethereum blockchain, it was, it was really over for me. And so I don't think there's, there's this very interesting. So I'm not into altcoins.

Anita Posch [00:16:49] I think there's a differentiation to do here. Do not say blockchain to these projects. They are distributed ledger projects most of the times. And yeah. Also I wanted to ask you about altcoins. Good. That we come to this point. what do you think about altcoins? Are there some that have a viable use case in your eyes?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:17:11] Yes. well, so I like to separate the space into two spaces. So you have the sound money technology space with Bitcoin and some other competitors, and then you have the blockchain database decentralized ledger space. So I think they're mixed up, they are actually trying to do something else.
So with Bitcoin, we really are looking for, for digital scarcity for sound money technology in the Austrian economics sense. And when you look in this space and you analyze, okay, so there's Bitcoin and there's all these copies. We call them shitcoins or altcoins. Are they actually doing something significantly better than Bitcoin?
And in my case, I don't think that there is any other coin, which has the same network effect, which has the same, ethos in it, how it was structured, how it was set up. And, yes. I also agree with the statement that you can invent digital scarcity only once and that you will actually have a, a shelling point, like a black hole for one like a network effect to one monetary standard here, it doesn't make sense to have all these different tokens, you know, but I'm not a big friend also of, bonus points and miles and more Lufthansa, airline, airline miles or something. So I, I always, I was never so much interested in these a token systems or anything, because I think it's just introduces a friction and pricing problems because, and, and, and it's, and most of these altcoins are actually scams because, we, we two we could do the Anita coin and then we change some, some attributes and we make the block space bigger and the, the difficulty adjustment different, and we have another hashing algorithm.
And then we do a nice website and pull off a huge scam by telling everybody okay the Anita coin is the best coin ever invented and have a huge marketing campaign and actually sell people the Anita coin. And then we buy Bitcoin. And when you look at these mechanisms, this is actually what Ripple is doing.
Or I also think Ethereum is very hyped and there are a lot of technical, very technical people interested in who don't understand money, they don't know what kind of a use case or what kind of problem they're solving with it. And, I think it's a Ethereum for me is a scam. I'm not bullish on Ethereum at all.
I think it's a, it's a very weird, project, which is very nicely disguised as a, as a tech world computer project, but it's actually a scam. Same with IOTA. I don't think IOTA has anything really to offer. They have a centralized controller running there pretty, unsympathetic in their appearance.
I think that IOTA is a scam. And if you look at the website and to see how many LinkedIn profiles they listed there, and if you really try to understand how the thing works, it's. Like it hasn't really worked. And if you look at Bitcoin, it has 10 years track record. That is super reliable. It's never, the network is like never, never down and ha a ridiculous uptime of 99.99, whatever percent, which is just amazing. And just to to make it, to make a nice website and have a huge promotion team and to go to every utility company in Germany and explain them or a car company and that they need iota to coordinate their self driving cars or whatever.
I mean, they're, they're good marketing salespeople, snake oil.

Anita Posch [00:20:57] Yeah, I think IOTA is very big in the german speaking area. Yeah. Now what comes to mind in the last days, we heard about wirecard missing 1.9 billion us dollars or euros. Anyhow, it's not a big difference and I think, Wirecard and TenX are connected in a way, or does

Moritz Wietersheim [00:21:20] I wouldn't be surprised. It would explain where, where some of the money has gone to. Yes. So the whole, the whole Wirecard case is just it's just amazing because, I think the auditor's Ernst and Young, they are already last year, they said, okay, the custody accounts in the Philippines where they had the money.
So basically they had 1.9 billion euros in Philippine bank accounts. And the auditors didn't check that this money was there and it was a quarter of the balance sheet. So some people really messed up and it looks like a huge fraud. And it's, I would be pretty surprised if the C level people were not involved.
So this is a, but this happens when you have very easy money. That means negative interest and crazy printing of money and money is chasing returns. Then companies like Wirecard get access through nice marketing stories and grab this money. And, yes, and then have a huge scam going on. So we you will see how this situation evolves, but I expect in the next, years that when we have another financial crisis, which could be coming up in the next six, probably six to 12 months. We will have a lot of these companies, zombie companies, which are actually failing and we will see that there was a tremendous amount of fraud going on and tremendous amount of scams going on.
So be careful when you, when you buy stock there or you buy altcoins or do your own research, look into it and verify that's not a scam here.

Anita Posch [00:23:16] Yeah

Moritz Wietersheim [00:23:16] because

Anita Posch [00:23:16] with Bitcoin, you cannot take Bitcoin and, put it into account and hide it. I mean, you can prove, funds and, this is actually also what, many Bitcoiners say that, exchanges should prove their funds.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:23:32] Yes,

Anita Posch [00:23:32] I
But in the, in the classical, in the legacy, financial world, you cannot prove them, or you need to Ernst & Young and they don't find it.
And then another year passes. I mean, how is this possible?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:23:43] it's just our very bad legacy system, which is not ready for, for the information age. And, basically we have incredible tools with the internet protocol with email, with video chat, with voice over IP, with podcasting and everything. But what is really missing is, is a protocol which helps us or infrastructure, which helps us to communicate value in form of digital scarcity.
And so we will, we are observing, I feel the more Fiat money I have in bank accounts, the more uncomfortable I feel. And this is the more. the more I save in Bitcoin and I opt out out of this old financial system and I opt into the digital scarcity of Bitcoin into this alternative. The more I feel comfortable about it.
And, this is a, is a weird process, but at some point I was talking with some Bitcoin friend of mine from Vienna also, and told me, told me this, and I totally agree with it. And ever since I see the news. I look back into this old system where people like Ernst and young and Wirecard can provide these mediocre services of auditing.
And when you look at like exchanges like Kraken, or I think Coinfloor, I think they do proof of funds and yes so you have some better or even Vaultoro I think has a, has a glass protocol or it's not, probably not perfect what they're doing yet and there are still better concepts to come, come up, but, we are going the right direction.
Yeah. And of course, with Bitcoin, you can self custody, with your hardware wallet or. Also with our product, you can do a multisignature wallet and you can, you can be your own bank. You can be on central bank. If you run your own node and verify yourself that you have received the coins and the Bitcoin, and also according to the protocol rules.
So there's no nobody in between you and, the monetary ledger. And because you have a copy of the monetary Bitcoin transaction ledger.

Anita Posch [00:25:58] So, it's your fourth year now in the Bitcoin space? What, which is actually a long time four years in 11 years. What have you experienced? How has the space in the German speaking world changed? Like maybe from a business point of view and also from a user point of view?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:26:19] I would rather say overall because the German space is very small and is mixed into, into the international space. But I think the whole, the content when I started in January, 2017, they weren't yeah. Maybe one, two podcasts, but not really good quality. So now we have you and people like Stephan Livera and others, which are doing a great job, just interviewing people and moderating the content.
And obviously being also Bitcoin only, I think the whole Bitcoin only narrative has become much stronger. And so the, on the extreme end we have the toxic maximalist and people who attack everybody who tries to do anything, looks a little bit like a scam or something. So, and, and to have also strong arguments.
And then what we see over all is just to build out of infrastructure is tremendous. We have here, last year, we were at Fidelity and visited their team for a workshop, which was a super interesting experience. And you're in a, at one of the biggest asset managers in the world, which manage billions, if not, I don't know, two or 3 trillion or more in U S dollar assets under management and they take Bitcoin very serious. Maybe they're looking a little bit too much into something like blockchain or altcoin stuff, but, yes. And then you have New York stock exchange with bakkt, which is, the, the New York stock exchange is owned by, It's privately owned they actually build a huge infrastructure there.
And so you see every, week you have a announcement like this almost. So, yes. So I think the whole space is getting a little bit more professional. It's better content better, but it's also very confusing because there's a huge amount. But if you are able to filter. What you have to do nowadays because, then with the information age you have, you're responsible yourself for the content you consume.
So when you go on social media, you always have to double check. Okay. Is this guy, telling me something which is real or is it just making up nonsense or. Is it a scam or what? So you have to think for yourself and people have to learn this. And I had to learn as also the hard way. And I was always looking like a skeptical guy and looking at things from different angles.
But I think when you are in Bitcoin, you start to question things much more and begin to open your mind more to different concepts.

Anita Posch [00:28:56] Yeah, it's true. And you need the basics to understand the differences in between the different projects. I mean, well, like for instance, Facebook's Libra, right? You know, it's hyped by people who don't understand that this is not a crypto currency. This is just another way of payment, you know, like JP Morgan coin, for instance, or as you say Ripple.
Yeah. It's not even a blockchain. I think so. yeah, you gotta, you need a lot of, education on that. Yeah. So, and also one point where I can hear many people say it's too difficult to store your private key securely. And, you started a company called crypto advance do you want to do?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:29:42] well, so. Do it, the bigger picture is that, crypto advance is about advancing cryptography. So it's not about like crypto, which is, stands for everything in the cryptocurrency space. So I'm not, I'm not so worried about, people talking, Oh, I'm in crypto. I do. Crypto crypto is the more they say crypto, the less scary it sounds because crypto cryptography has a little bit something crypto anarchisty to it. And, but I think, I founded this company together with my partner Stepan Snigirev, who's the CTO who, the ex quantum physicist for the German Max Planck Institute. He was, and as a really great guy and we, we want to use cryptography to really improve, digital privacy for the individual and create systems where people can, can communicate privately.
And also, especially as a first step, we want to help people to store their Bitcoin safely and securely. not only as an individual and, but also as a, as an enterprise. So what we. What we did is that we, started Specter and Specter is, has two pieces is basically the Specter desktop, which is a, is a desktop app, which allows you to have an air gapped and watch only wallet which runs together with your Bitcoin core node. So you protect your privacy by not giving out your public keys, which is very important when you use a normal hardware wallet. I think with Trezor the XPUB goes to Trezor so they know all your transaction history because they have the master public key and with Ledger, I think they have the first 200 addresses.
They get the first 200 addresses of your account. And so they know what you were transacting. So this is very bad for your privacy. If you don't run your own node, you should run your own node. And on top of it, have a watch only wallet like Specter, desktop. And then what we built on the side is from off the shelf devices with a nice screen and a card reader and a camera, a QR code gap do it yourself, hardware wallet and this comes along very nicely. And, we, our business model or idea is more that we focus on the, on the enterprise side, providing Bitcoin companies with a hardware solutions, firmware solutions, or generally support their enterprise solutions with stuff they need.
And on the other side, support the community with great tools like specter and to hodl their Bitcoin safely in a multisignature setup, but also in a single seed set up. So look into that. We are on GitHub. We are on Twitter. We have a telegram support channel and yes, if you're a little technical, we will come out hopefully later this year, with a nicely packaged app, but if you're like a developer guy and you want to check it out, we are now on RaspiBlitz. So if you have a RaspiBlitz, run specter and check it out. And, yes.

Anita Posch [00:32:43] So now you, you answered all my questions before I could ask them.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:32:52] I'm on autopilot. If I get asked.

Anita Posch [00:32:55] Oh, it's great. Thanks. let's get back a little bit from, from the projects you're working on, to Bitcoin. What is your expectation of the development of Bitcoin in the near and distant future? What do you think comes next? Is it, can it be a hedge against the financial crisis we have.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:33:14] well, I believe Bitcoin was exactly built for what is happening right now. And, I think it's a, great hedge. It can't be printed. It can't be can't really be confiscated. it's very hard to tax. So, and it's digital scarcity, so it's even scarcer than gold and it's actually getting more scarce.
A lot of people don't talk about this aspect. Every time somebody loses his private key and loses access to his Bitcoins these Bitcoins are gone. So Bitcoin becomes actually more scarce and a lot of people don't, don't grasp it. And when you look at the amount of money printing, which is happening at the moment, the amount of insane spending happening by governments. I think it's a, it's a, it's a great hedge against a crisis, a serious crisis, our, of our old financial system. So at the moment, the whole markets, jumping back up and some people talk about this being a crack out beam, boom, which means like an inflation boom.
So when you look at the stock markets in Venezuela, Argentina, or other countries, which experienced high or hyper inflation. You'll see that the stock markets are rising very quickly. And it seems like the markets have figured out that the central banks can't stop printing and that they will print that they will do everything to avoid a deflationary crash, which happened in the 1930s and they sort of learned from it. So this time they will try to avoid this deflationary crash by printing as much money as possible to make sure that we are going directly into an inflationary or hyper.., a lot of hyperinflation, but it's strongly inflationary environment.
And yes, what is very interesting is that we currently see that they really start doing universal basic income. And, I was, always saying already before Corona crisis last summer. And then an autumn okay they will have to do, universal, basic income because what they did the last 10 years, just, negative interest and pressing printing money and putting the money into the banking system, just.
Creates a huge wealth disparity the richer, always get richer it's socialism for the rich and the poor lose purchasing power and lose and can't purchase assets anymore with this. So what they have to do now to tune this down is have universal basic income. And, I think, yes, it's the only way they can go.
So I think Bitcoin is a great hedge. It's digital gold and it's, it's very volatile. So, you should at least hold it for four or five years and, yes, just hodl on and don't trade it away for any altcoins or Wirecard stock or some nonsense.

Anita Posch [00:36:17] Yeah, I think so too. I think you have to be patient and have a low time, preference or high time preference.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:36:27] I say longterm thinking, I think

Anita Posch [00:36:30] that's
good.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:36:31] preference. Everybody gets confused about it. Even the Bitcoiners and just drop the time reference to say, I have a long or short time horizon. This is where I'm, I'm very longterm thinking guy or longterm horizon guy.

Anita Posch [00:36:47] Yeah, there's also that saying that we overestimate what we can do in a short time and underestimate what we can do in the long run. I don't know who said it, but I think it's great. I always have to think about that also. Yeah, it's also for my own projects, you know, my, my own work, like getting more followers and stuff and creating more content and then I'll always think, okay, you can't do it all.
Now. I do it over the years.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:37:14] Yeah. So like adding a little bit every, every day and doing what you can every day and make a little progress every day. And, yes. So I believe we have, we have one real superpower. And this is actually, to have good habits. So if you, if your, if you really look at what you do every day and have good habits and, you, you eat well and you sleep well and you, you, you do your sport and, and also have specific things you do every day, which you consciously plan and you, you manage your habits and you you're, you're on a good track longterm.

Anita Posch [00:37:55] Yeah, I've been swimming my 30 minutes already today. What's your sport?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:38:01] I, I, before Corona virus hit, I was training Brazilian jujitsu, which is a it's like Yudo but more with ground fighting. And it's a fun sport. It's quite technical. And it's a, it's a whole, another rabbit hole. And, well, I go cycling and swimming and I used to play basketball, but I'm too old for this now.
And I'm always, this is a young man's game and I, I, I'm not, I'm not so quick anymore on my feet.

Anita Posch [00:38:32] Yeah. So are you also a part of Team Satoshi?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:38:35] Not, I'm not a part of team satoshi. I just recently started cycling, but I was, every time I was cycling, I was like, I should do this with Team Satoshi and, to cycle a little bit more with these guys. Yeah.

Anita Posch [00:38:47] Okay. Thank you very much. I always close this with the question about, book recommendations. About Bitcoin. Do you have something at hand or can you recommend anything to our listeners?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:39:02] There are so many super interesting books. And, while this, this could be another 40 minutes of podcast. So what I really would like people to look into is, is a book by Titus Gebel called "free private cities". And it's about a new governance model, which is oriented towards a free private city.
And I think this is a very interesting concept and will be a very interesting market and the next, which will develop in the next 10 years and which will, improve quality of live around the world. Tremendously. If we have free private cities as a, as a product for, as a new concept of living together, and as a new way of opting out of dysfunctional national States.
yeah. So, look into free private cities by Titus Gebel. And I think it's also available as a free audio book on, on Spotify. So you can listen to it while you drive a car or do you do something that's a really cool book.

Anita Posch [00:40:08] Interesting. I will look into it too, because I don't know it. Yeah. Yeah. So please tell our listeners, where can they find you and follow your work?

Moritz Wietersheim [00:40:18] Well, the easiest way is to follow us on Twitter @cryptoadvance. And I'm personally, I have a private, Twitter account, but I don't tweet too much. It's MoritzWietersheim and of course follow my CTO Stepan Snigirev, we don't tweet too much we just try to keep it to the relevant stuff.
I'm focused on Specter and more general, some technical stuff, but we are trying to be not too noisy on Twitter and, and really make, make relevant tweets. And other than that, check out our GitHub website and you can see some nice screenshots there of the Specter and of the Specter hardware wallet and the things that are to come.
Yes, and yeah, stay tuned to Bitcoin and we will meet again.

Anita Posch [00:41:07] Yes, we definitely will. So thank you, Moritz. Thank you very much and have a nice day.

Moritz Wietersheim [00:41:13] Perfect. Have a great day.

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